Military coup in Turkey

Merkel has said today that if Erdegan brings back the death penalty,it will kill any chance they have of joining the EU.
If he does,I wonder what will happen to the EU agreement with Turkey and asylum seekers/immigrants.
I feel for those Turkish people who oppose Erdegan,it must be very worrying.
I can see whatever freedoms they do have may be eroded.

Without going into politics. We have owned a house in southern Turkey for 20 odd years. When we first bought it, Turkey looked so different then. Tiny airport which is now a large international one. The main roads were so rough with huge potholes it used to take us over an hour to get to our house. It now takes us 25 mins. The general affluence coming through is unbelievable. just unrecognisable now. It's like being in a different country. Of course there is always the hard working farming communities which even those now on route to our house, have much smarter looking houses and a large number of the young teenagers have even taken to wearing jeans. Have made so many lovely Turkish friends there. Just saying .........

Erdegan is between a rock and a hard place. He really would like to hang them, but, that really would be the death knell for their entry into the eu and all the goodies that would bring.

Turkey had abolished the death penalty I think. Watch it being brought back now.

And so would I obieone - Monica I think you are losing sight of the subject of the discussion - look up online Paul Rogers CBC radio interview - a fantastic overview from an unbiased expert

I wouldlike to agree to differ with you M0nica.

Birene you are right , there is something badly amiss here, treatment of judges and troops is dreadful if the stories are correct.
Oh for some good news or tales of man's humanity to man for a change.

Yes, I think they can. The range of information in the media is very wide from far left to far right, there are political magazine and journals, BBC World Survey. There is comment and blogs all over the internet. A person in Paraquay can probably better understand the UK than we do ourselves.

The comment made by lostmyglasses was:
^Monica
Actually you summed up the political and social landscape very well^

I have never met or spoken to anybody from Turkey

Do you really think that if a person is say in Paraguay, that they are going to be able to properly understand the UK without
a. ever having been here and
b. media only, with or without whatever bias it has?

I understand what you are saying, but It is possible to understand the political situation in a country without knowing a national from it I definitely dont agree with.

Like you I have friends from various countries, but I can tell that when they talk about the UK, they are more or less listening to one media outlet only.
That is all well and good, but only up to a point.

So I agree with your secon and third paragraphs, but still can't agree with your first one.

I think it is unwise to dismiss other people's knowledge of a situation by attributing cliched and stereotypical views to them. It is possible to understand the political situation in a country without knowing a national from it. Indeed, sometimes to do so can be very misleading.

During the difficulties Sierra Leone had in the 1990s I had a Sierra Leonian friend. She was an economist and academic and I took my understanding of the situation there from her. Then I heard a programme on the World Service where another national of that country gave a completely different interpretation. When I mentioned to my friend she immediately fired off and I realised that the views of my friend and the broadcaster were views from different sides of a political divide. The view I had been getting from my friend was politically very biassed.

Opinion from one or two nationals can be very misleading.

Rather than decry 'many' of these posts as 'very opinionated' I would suggest a better, more diplomatic phrase, would be to say there is much 'informed opinion' on this thread.

Non western elections have the reputation of 'Once man one vote. Once.' When the 'elected dictator' is in place the repressive crackdown takes place. Personally, I have no sympathy for any creed, political party or group which is based on misogyny and I live in fear of those who would repress women getting the upper hand in my own ( currently) free country. I look on with horror at how the hard won rights of women are being squandered by those who would appease these women hating groups.

Whatever the outcome is in Turkey, God help their women.

Monica
Actually you summed up the political and social landscape very well
?

Monica
I was responding to your comment that you did not need to know citizens of a country
Nobody questioned your knowledge
Dont take it so personally
This crisis is not about us

Many - but not all - of the posts on this thread appear to be very opinionated. People who have lived in Turkey clearly have a valid opinion, others, like myself, merely form opinions from media coverage, and the odd trip to Turkey. Personally I have loved visiting a variety of Turkish regions and always found the people to be very hospitable, and I feel extremely saddened by the recent events. I do not care for their president and his policies, but I have formed this opinion from the media reports and I in no way feel qualified to say very much more about this clearly complex situation. My thoughts are with the Turkish people at this very difficult time for them.

Kempsy3
I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but I have to agree with you that something doesn't feel right . I have wondered too about the 3,000 judges and there place in this. Their sacking makes me wonder what it is about them that Erdogan doesn't want in his country. Could he be planning a deeper form of Sharia law? That would not be surprising given his Islamist outlook. I can't pretend to have any inside knowledge of modern day Turkey - I spent several weeks there as a hippy in the 60's and found the people kind and welcoming.
Watching and reading copious accounts of what has occurred however, just makes me feel that there is more to this so-called 'coup' than meets the eye.Erdogan is a tricky , backward looking authoritarian who mis - uses the term 'democracy' for his own distasteful ends. I'd put nothing past this man.

I believe this so called coup was a "set up" Just to give the powers that be an excuse to arrest and imprison anyone who had the courage to speak out against them.
What did the 3,000 judges have to do with the failed coup?

lostmyglasses Please do not make assumptions about my knowledge of Turkey. Politically it is a very complex country. On one hand in the cities there is an educated and sophisticated elite with far more connections with its western neighbours than its eastern ones. But the majority of its voters live in rural areas, work in agriculture and are much more conservative and far more islamic in their outlook. It is they that vote for Erdogan, keep him in power and accept his increasingly dictatorial behaviour.

Although Kemal Atatturk imposed a secular constitution on his country, many opposed it and wanted a more Islamic constitution and many still think that way.

In addition Turkey has had to cope with disaffection in the area of Kurdistan that lies in Turkey. At one time the government did do a deal with the PKK, the main terrorist group, but as the province of Kurdistan in Iraq has become moved far closer to being de facto an independent state, while still officially a province of that country, Kurdish opposition in Turkey has revitalised and more terrorist attacks are occurring.

Turkey is in a difficult place, its urban populations want to look west but its rural populations do not. It has the problem of the Syrian civil war on one border, and its problems with the Kurds.

Do you want to know anything else about my knowledge of Turkey and its political problems?

I lived and worked in turkey for 13 years, I was there when the AKP party came to power. Erdogan's policies did wonders for Turkey economically, I saw a huge rise in affluence for many Turks and it is no wonder that the people are loyal to him. Unfortunately as with so many previous idealists, the power and loyalty given by the populace to him went to his head and he became more and more power hungry.

A military coup will not work as too many Turks still remember the previous coups, particularly the 1980s coup, and how they suffered under it. But of course the younger generation having lived under the freedom of Western influence have become more and more disillusioned with Erdogan's increasing authoritarian manner and until such time as he sees where and why he is alienating people thing swill continue with the flashpoints of resistance.

His arrest of so many military personnel is an example of his muddled thinking, this will only further alienate the people who feel he always goes too far.

Having said all that, the only reason I came back was ill health and if I was fit enough not to have to rely on regular medication I would be back there like a shot. Turkey is a wonderful country full of wonderful people.

Interesting that you mention Iran ,Anya.

My ex partner travelled from the UK to India by motorbike , through Turkey and into Iran.When he reached Tehran drivers shook his hand,welcomed him to 'their country' and guided him through the heavy traffic.Others serviced his bike for free ,showed him around their city and invited him into their homes for meals.
They told him how saddened they were by their reputation in the West,and asked him to tell people in the UK that "We are the same as you".
It is a beautiful country with some very lovely people.Since his trip,I have always felt saddened by their lack of freedom.

Very true lostmyglasses

My daughter lived and worked in Ankara for two years. This was in the early 90s. She is still in touch with many of the friends she made there, and it is true that the country is slipping 'backwards' away from secularism slowly by surely.

I've no idea who was behind this coup, but the Turkish military have had to step in several times to protect secular democracy. The President may have the support of just over half the populace but that doesn't mean this support is the kind that will support western values. Iran was a very different, modern-facing country before it fell under the sway of the ayatollahs.

Monica
It makes a huge difference if you know citizens of a country!!! - and understand from their perspective - Democracy is a very veiled word - trust me I know many people who are worried fir their country -I have done business there for years
People do not know Turkey -they think it's a middle eastern package holiday destination -they liken it to Arab states in their minds but it is a country of such contrasts - in One area of Istanbul you could be in sophisticated New York or in another in the Middle East
Believe me the educated and informed do not view suppression as democratic and his supporters are the other Turks that he sent out onto the streets the night of the coup to fight and die for him - I rest my case

I could have written this post. Myself ! I agree
I know many Turks through business and as friends - I have a strong connection with the people and the word democracy is irrelevant - the country is divided and is going backwards -

A democracy in its purist sense is rule by the people. Classical Athenian democracy never extended beyond a few thousand important people. It just meant that it wasn't a top down autocracy.

Most democracies have elections of some sort, so they are rule by the majority. Democracies don't have to guarantee minority rights or opinions, which is why I think that they can be dangerous (and why I don't like referendums).