Brexit watch, round 2

youtu.be/m3_I2rfApYk
this probably won't work but, if it does I found it very good.

just about sums it all up [imo]...

Deedaa Thu 21-Jul-16 20:42:47
Quite agree Deedaa. You would think it was a football match whereas it is the future of the whole of the UK whichever way you voted. Those who voted leave are neither superior beings nor do they have a right to go round insulting anyone who puts forward ideas and facts they don't like. I know we have seen reporting that the small 'in' majority has sadly given a few people the idea they now have permission to be racist, but it also seems to have made some people the idea that all they believe must go unquestioned.

Firecracker123 Thu 21-Jul-16 21:18:38
When people resort to nasty personal remarks anyone could reasonably assume they have little real argument. dd just disagrees with your view - it happens - but it doesn't mean you have to make disparaging personal remarks. I do not see things from your perspective either. Perhaps I will be next for the name calling and really, resorting to "calm down" - even David Cameron had to accept how supercilious that remark sounded.

granjura Thu 21-Jul-16 21:19:33
Don't they just!

thatbags Thu 21-Jul-16 21:49:04
It would thatbags; that is the legal position of a referendum.

given not made

Tegan Thu 21-Jul-16 21:58:32

I heard that interview Tegan. It began reasonably but I was shocked with his views towards the end; he just shrugged off any responsibility.

Tegan Thu 21-Jul-16 22:12:55

Brilliant. Perhaps a 'leave' voter can tell us which outcome we should expect

I was a remain voter but if we do Brexit would prefer not to lose our business to Frankfurt. Mentioning it is one thing but it seemed like the Beeb was advertising it.

Germany has issued a statement saying that it will make an effort to attract young Brits to Germany. It's news and has been in the media for a few days. There was even mention before the referendum. My son quite perked up when he read about it. It might give some others hope too.

I think it's quite right that people are aware that there is a real risk that finance, IT and science might be poached. There were warnings before the referendum, but people chose not to listen. It's better they are told than wake up one day and discover that so many of the country's money earners have gone.

My niece, a doctor, has just been in the USA where she had three job interviews dd. I have not spoken to her since she got back but I cannot imagine she will not go. I am sure there will be a bit of a brain drain - just going on the conversations I have had with our young people and those my friends have had. Of course, where people decide to go to work in the EU they may have done that anyway but they will have bigger decisions to take now.

Excellent, Tegan, but I do not like the size of that big red button. Reminds me of something else.
Fullfact on the legal position of Brexit.

fullfact.org/law/ask-full-fact-brexit-in-court/

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/20/david-cameron-accused-gross-negligence-brexit-contingency-plans

Bet he's not smiling now.

The problem with medics is not just to do with the EU. My daughter shares a flat with three of them and they're not intending to stay in the UK.

A number of British students go to Germany to study anyway and I know that Germany has always looked quite enviously at the British finance, science and IT sectors. From what I know, it won't hold back.

Before the referendum, my fear was that the UK would become the low wage sweatshop of Europe and maybe a tax haven. I sincerely hope I wasn't right.

Looking at the Parliamentary Select Committee's report on Sports Direct, there is a suggestion that the Dickension model may well become the norm.

A lot of us were very critical of the young person that posted lots of horrible comments about selfish older people. Many people made the point that it was ridiculous to generalise, and yet what is happening here is that a lot of people are doing exactly that.

I think it is fairly clear that the campaign did seem to arouse a lot of anti-foreigner feeling - BUT that doesn't mean that everyone who voted to leave had the same opinions. My husband voted to leave and it was absolutely nothing to do with immigration. I respected his point of view, and shared some of his opinions, but in the end decided to vote to stay because, with a Conservative Party in power, I feared that the various protections offered by the EU, would be dismantled.

There are obviously big risks attached to the result but my feeling is that to keep catastrophising the situation is going to make it even worse. Are some of you actually saying that you want the result to be nullified - don't you think that would cause a great deal of resentment and even more division?

If, as is now being suggested, the referendum was "non-binding and advisory only", it might have been a good idea to let the voters in on that piece of information.

If I'm honest, I would love the anti-BREXIT fairy to come along, wave a magic wand and tell me to wake up out of a bad dream. My personal view is that BREXIT is and will be a disaster. Almost all my working life has been dedicated to opening minds to Europe, so it would be surprising if I weren't just a tad gutted. My children take free movement for granted, so this all seems like pulling up a drawbridge for no reason at all. I have serious reservations about Cameron's judgment in calling for a referendum.

Nevertheless, it's happened and I agree with you that we don't want to go down an American-style route of deciding whether the referendum was constitutional or not. We should get on with it and make the best of it. I seriously think the best will be a disappointment to the people who voted Leave and we'll be knocking on the door to be allowed back in - maybe not in my lifetime, but certainly in my children's lifetime. Future historians will struggle to understand why we wanted to leave in the first place, because it's not rational.

I don't think that keeping the public informed is catastrophising. I live near Cambridge, which was one of the few areas to vote Remain, and people I know personally are already seeing real (as opposed to threatened) effects. The area has world-class research facilities and people are already finding themselves excluded from funding. The father of one of my pupils was at an Innovative Medicines Initiative meeting in Brussels last week, but felt himself sidelined. These contracts are worth billions of pounds, provide jobs and produce exports for the UK, but we're already beginning to see that people are twitchy. Research projects have been cut and investment is drying up - and we haven't even triggered Article 50 yet. It would be stupid to pretend everything's OK, because it really isn't. Hopefully those who voted Leave can come up with some solutions to the real problems the UK is going to face.

From what I have read, a lot of those who voted to leave are horrified at what they have done and wish for a Brexit fairy to come along and make everything better.

eloethan like you I had reservations about the EU. In my case it was what I consider to be the democratic gap. However, I felt that on balance we will fare better as a member than otherwise.

I am not sure why you think the idea that the vote would only be and could ever be advisory was not made clear before the referendum. I knew and I am sure that most people knew. Farage certainly did in his rejection of it if the vote was the opposite way I.e. 48% leave 52% remain.

Personally I am hoping for a Brexit lite - if there can be such a thing, as to ignore half of the voters wishes would be perverse.

One way or another half the voters are going to be ignored.
The only way out of that is to have another referendum after the terms have been negotiated, which hopefully will give a bigger difference in the vote.

The signals coming from Government is that public projects are to be re- examined with the understand ing that some of them will be put on the back burner.

The Reason? That old chestnut Brexit I'm afraid. It is going to take up so much time, personnel and money that other stuff has to wait or be scrapped.

Sorry for reporting facts that are not particularly digestible to leavers.

The Brexit campaign was of course run on lies. However, this has not made it any easier for the UK in its negotiations.

We were told that immigration will stop and payments to the EU will cease and be used for GOOD stuff.

The EU has picked up on this and is already indicating that both of those things are impossible if we also want access to the single market ( talk about having your cake and eating it).

Therein lies the nub. It was never going to be possible to gain access without a payback. Anyone with half a brain could have worked that out. But the Brexit campaign has definitely left a lot of miffed countries in the EU who will not be particularly accommodating, to our requests knowing that Brexit was run on so much deceit.

Tegan- about the lack of sympathy for those financially affected by Brexit. Well, in our case - I think the feeling is 'well they chose to emigrate abroad so they deserve what they get' sort of thing. Perhaps a bit of the green eyed monster too. I do totally agree actually, that voters in the UK had to vote for the UK and not for expats abroad- totally.

But yes- being told that one 'must have made some very poor financial choices' - and imply that we must hve been greedy with high risk investments- really are insulting and upsetting.

We will always cope- I just know it- Cut the cloth, adjust- cut down- that's how we started with, with nothing so that's fine. Might even open that B&B and start residential/guided discovery language courses again. We can be very frugal if we have to- got the space and all we need to get started.

Always intended to go back to UK at some stage- but for now- I just couldn't- as the open and tolerant country I loved seems to have gone. Let's hope it is temporary (but I am not sure... tragically).

Just in case anyone is interested- and do ignore if you are not. Those who emigrated to EU countries with the Euro have taken a big hit because Sterling values have fallen. But in our case, having moved to Switzerland- we have had a double whammy. The Swiss Franc has risen as fast as the £ Sterling has dropped for several reasons about 40% overnight when the Swiss Franc was deregulated versus the Euro- and now another 15% the other day. It has rallied a little and is not down only 10% (eg 50% in total)... but there is no way of predicting what will happen next.

Those of you who don't know me will understandably say - 'well how stupid to move to Switzerland'!!! And my reply will be, we didn't really pluck Switzerland out of a hat. That is where I was born and raised- and where my elderly parents needed help and support, and where we have so many friends. We knew there would be fluctutation- but 55% is hard to take- I think most of you would see that- even if you voted 'leave'. Thank goodness we moved to a part of Switzerland where prices were cheap (yes cheaper than most parts of UK) and where we are so close to France so we can shop there.

Not asking for any sympathy here- just explaining the situation. Especially to those who say 'we must have made stupid financial decisions'.

'Over the past 15 years, the Swiss franc has increased in value substantially against both the US dollar and the euro. In recent years, factors such as the European debt crisis and accommodative monetary policy from the US Federal Reserve have boosted the franc.

Currencies trade in pairs, so they are strong or weak in relation to another currency. The European debt crisis caused investors to seek safe haven in the Swiss franc and loose monetary policy diminished the appeal of the US dollar.

The dramatic surge in the Swiss franc in 2015 was due primarily to one key event early in the year. On January 15, the Swiss National Bank (SNB) unexpectedly removed the peg of 1.20 francs per euro. In the initial reaction to the news, the Swiss franc rallied a massive 30% versus the euro and 25% against the US dollar. The move caused major upheaval in the markets and even forced some foreign exchange brokers out of business.

The SNB peg was initially set in 2011 after the eurozone crisis caused investors to flock to the Swiss franc in search of a safe haven. The franc is widely viewed as a financial refuge due to the stability of the Swiss government and financial system. The buying interest at the time caused the franc to soar and in turn hurt the Swiss economy by making exports less competitive.

Read more: Why The Swiss Franc Is So Strong | Investopedia www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/033115/why-swiss-franc-so-strong.asp#ixzz4F82fqb5C

'Are some of you actually saying that you want the result to be nullified - don't you think that would cause a great deal of resentment and even more division?' In answer to that there is going to be a lot of resentment when things that people were promised by the the leave campaigners are impossible to fulfil.

...and, if anything it is the pressure being put on the government by the pro[boring yawn] Europeans that will probably result in some of the false promises made actually being implemented, as they are the ones constantly reminding people of those false promises. Without that the 'forgotten people' who voted leave would probably have continued to be the 'forgotten people' .

More indigestible news for Brexiteers.

The economy has plunged to the lowest level of economic activity since 2009.

Chancellor is to "reset" the economy in the autumn statement. I wonder what to?