...to expect kids to behave in cafes/restaurants?

My husband is ex military, and had no trouble getting our two to behave for us. He didn't use fear or smacking: he had simply perfected that 'look' that brings children up short when they are getting too noisy or naughty in the wrong environment. My own method was to quietly lay down the law, face to face, at the child's level.

However, if I knew they were over boisterous and noisy and wild I would simply not have taken them anywhere they could have annoyed the people around us. I don't think it is fair to do that to strangers.

Yes, I can see Myfanwy's point. But one thing that has impressed me with modern methods of bringing up children is the idea of concentrating on and rewarding their good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour by ignoring them.

"Ignoring them" doesn't necessarily mean letting rip, though. It often means removing them from a situation where they are making a nuisance of themselves.

There was a danger of that the other day when my husband and I had a meal in a restaurant with my daughter; her husband and her two boys. The younger boy, at the end of the meal was showing signs of making a pain of himself, so I offered to take both boys home immediately - an offer that was so gratefully accepted by my daughter that she insisted on paying for our meal!

Result - boys removed from potentially difficult situation, happy parents allowed to get on with the remainder of their meal in peace, and happy grandparents, enabled to enjoy a few extra minutes of their grandchildren's company. Win-win situation.

And yes, Twizzle. I am proud of them - so proud that "proud" seems hardly the right word!

I am never shocked by bad behaviour in shops and cafes because my noisy, extrovert children were absolutely dreadful. Any environment was an adventure playground; they couldn't keep still; they engaged everyone in conversation; they lay on the ground and "shot" other customers with imaginary guns and rode up the outside of escalators; they rolled around any floor wrestling. People commented as if I had given them express permission to misbehave when, actually, I tried everything to shut the little b****rs up without offering them another challenge to defeat.

I never disapprove. Other people's children - however vile - never eat their way into my brain and bring on madness like my own did and sometimes still do. There are biddable kids, defiant kids, endlessly creative in naughtiness kids, sneaky kids, funny kids and we should tolerate them all because they mainly inherit their parents' genetic predispositions. There's a limit to our ability to mould them, thank God. I always tell myself, anyway, that the woman with the pain in neck offspring has probably been making do with too little sleep for years and she might punch me if I look down my nose at her. My fiends grew into model citizens though not boring, intolerant model citizens!

Jangran, Your grandchildren have adhered to the standards of behaviour which is expected of them, and impressed upon them by their parents, which, in turn, they will then pass on to their own children. You must be so proud of them, and rightly so.

I am sure that you will agree that it is sad that good behaviour is now regarded as the exception, rather than the rule.

Jangran* It's true that children respond well to a pat on the back for good behaviour. "Well done" and "I'm proud of you" [when deserved] helps to boost their developing self-esteem. Well done you.

Re children's behaviour in restaurants and so on... I agree wholeheartedly with the general comments, and so would my daughters and sons-in-law, who expect good behaviour from their own children.

But, just as a suggestion... Last year we took our three eldest grandchildren (ages 7; 4 and 3) to a hotel for a few days. They were lined up and given a little talk about how they should behave in the hotel restaurant, and they did behave themselves.

But at the end of one meal, a couple of elderly (well, whitehaired) ladies sitting at a nearby table came over to us and complimented us on having such well behaved children. They commented that it was quite unusual.

The children were happy to be praised, and their granddad and I felt over the moon.

Perhaps, as with child care, praise for chldren's good behaviour from strangers might be more encouraging than complaints for their bad behaviour?

I think it's in the 'chat' forum

twizzle where is the "idle chit-chat" thread...I cannot locate it...

ditto supernana

I've just seen a thread headed 'idle chit-chit' - perhaps we should go there for some idle chit-chatting.

twizzle...I've missed you...

ditto supernana

Natalie - I, like many others, wish that I had the guts to stand up and be counted. However, the type of mum who remains "oblivious" to their attention-seeking child would, [I imagine] be there in a trice to rant and rave and possibly hit me around the face with a bunch of wet kippers should I dare to so!

Thanks for the support, folks. Have any of us got the guts to stand up and be counted and make a kind but helpful comment to the mums in question???? Too scared, I guess. Today in our local Costa, child screaming its head off repeatedly, getting more and more wound-up for half an hour-plus, while mums chatted away oblivious. Lots of "cats bottom" faces from surrounding customers, but none of us had the courage to say "Either COMFORT your child or take him outside to calm down."

Dear Penman....I'd be the first to agree that discipline was an excellent aspect of child care. Children need firm, fair boundaries consistently applied. However, having been brought up with a father who instilled nothing but fear in all of his children, I would never ever agree that a parent should make their children fear them. My children learnt to behave by not wishing to gain dissapproval or feel that they had let us down also, perhaps more importantly, by becoming responsible for their own actions and learning self discipline. They did not and do not live in fear of our reactions. They know what is right and what is wrong and are both highly responsible members of society and one is marvellous Mum to a delightful and well behaved 2 year old.

Penman...my upbringing mirrors yours. Discipline was learned at home, was observed in the classroom and respected in the wider community. My parents did a stirling job and I bless them for their efforts as I approach my 70th birthday.

Let me begin by saying that I am not a very nice man:

Reading through these rather sad commentaries about children's behaviour in public I feel that one important element is missing, an element that was paramount in my family group starting with my own grandfather whom I regarded with awe "Start as you mean to go on!" It was firmness combined with kindness and regard for good behaviour. My own father regarded his grandfather in a similar light.

My four children were obliged to behave themselves in public, even if it meant lining them up before we embarked and telling them what I expected of them.

They knew what to expect if they failed: no pocket money for a week (two weeks if the misdemeanour was severe) even a stinging slap on the thigh. It was often tough going - for me that is. There were times when my dear wife thought I was over-reacting pleading for leniency and there were times when I wanted to swap keeness for laizes-faire for it is hard to see a child having to pay for bad behaviour: but when paid out kindness and love came forth from this not very nice man and extra pocket money for extra tasks like cleaning the car, sweeping the drive, helping Mum in the house.

I was taught by this system: there was no intention of strengthening love or engendering hate and popularity did not matter; it was simply the adult way of teaching the child the right way to do things.

At a family barbeque one grandchild of 23 said to me with his typical broad grin:-

"My dad said that you were a real horror when you were a dad.!"

I remember my reply: "I still am a dad - so just watch it, kid!"

It was a good party as I remember.

To be serious for a moment: Why is it that I hear no masculine voices in this column? What has happened to all the men? All I hear is this continuous female drip about how difficult children can be.

With regard to parents simply ignoring the bad behaviour of thier children in public, has anyone noticed the same attitude in some dog owners? Someone I know was recently bitten by a dog tethered outside an eating place and when she complained to the owners she was met with blank stares and 'What do you expect us to do about it?' They did eventually send one of their children (!) to move the dog, but it wasn't moved very far and no apology was forthcoming.

This problem is not new. Back in the late 1960s I worked in Knightsbridge and went to a local small restaurant where at lunchtime customers were expected to share tables. A very elegant lady with a child of about four joined my table. When the food came the child started eating meat and two veg with her fingers, spreading her food all over the table and chair, putting her gravied fingers in the bowl of sugar and licking them - and repeating the process. During the whole time the mother said not a word to the child and just ignored her. In the end I felt so revolted by he child's behaviour I had to leave, my meal half eaten.

My general experience is nowadays children behave better in restaurants than they used to. Generally when out with my granddaughter (4) we eat in places like Pizza Express, very popular with families, or the cafes attached to farm shops and, occasionally carveries Children I have seen in all of these venues seem to be well behaved.

What I have noticed a number of times is how little the adults interact
with the children in their group. In Pizza Express recently a family party came in. including small children, the children were put altogether one end of the table and the adult sat the other and were far to busy chatting between themselves to take any notice of the children. I was amazed how well behaved the children were.

When my children were small (they are now 33 and 30), we would stay in small hotels on holiday and friends would ask how we could do that. The children knew that they had to behave at the table and stay there until the meal was finished. My grandson who is now 19th months is taken out to restaurants which provide high-chairs and if he gets fractious, one of the adults will take him on their lap. We watched, in horror, recently, a small boy aged about 3, be allowed to play with a glass vase on a nearby empty table and drop it on the floor, smashing it. The parents said nothing about it to the waitress before they left.!

Children eating while running around is not a new phenomenon.

Thirtyfive years ago I ran a playgroup for 3 to 5 year-olds. This was not in a rough area, the children were all from middle-class homes.

One of our rituals was all taking our elevenses together. We would put several small tables in a row, with little chairs around, and the children would open their packets of snacks (from home, so they all had something they liked) and drink their milk.

It was clearly a new experience for many to be sitting down together to eat. Some thought they could go away and play and expect to find their food where they left it half an hour later. Some wanted to take it to eat while on a slide, some wanted to use their food as finger paint.

With a bit of patience, and the example of the others, everyone eventually developed reasonable habits, but this was really a job for parents, not for us to do. Now that watching TV, and eating snacks rather than a solid meal, are the norm, basic good table manners are a lost cause.

We don't ask for elaborate cutlery etiquette, just for them to eat neatly and quietly and not spoil other people's enjoyment.

I love the cats bottom! (well not literally of course) lol

Have you considered that the good behaviour observed in France and Italy may stem from the fact that children are actually welcomed in cafes and restaurants?

I think this is because they behave appropriately.Also waiters can make a fuss of them-imagine the fuss in this country if a waiter picked them up, or even touched them!
Eating out with children requires effort, the adults can't just chat and ignore them or talk on mobiles. They need to include the child in the conversation.
People can't have it both ways, if they want people to be child friendly they have to allow them to interact with the child.In this country it tends to 'my child, my rules,' you have to look indulgently on, putting up with all sorts of bad behaviour, without saying a word!
There would be hell to pay if I picked up one of these roaming, noisy toddlers and amused them!

"I doubt children are better behaved in Italy because staff make a fuss of them ?!"

I think I said rather more than this single sentence! But my point was that in those countries which seem to love, rather than shout at, children, the children pick up the vibe. I have no doubt that table manners are taught early on in France and Italy but I also know that since eating out is a routine part of daily life, the behavioural expectations tend to get soaked up from tiny babyhood. In the UK, apart from Macdonalds and other fast-food abominations outlets, children have far fewer opportunities to eat out with adults and it's a deal harder to get them used to it if you wait until they are school age or upwards.

grannyactivist - Thats sad isn't it ?
My daughters lets her children have a picnic blanket on the floor in living room whilst they eat their meal and watch TV ! I think they only sit at the table of a Sunday. She also lets them run around with beakers/drinks in their hand.
WHen they come to my house i make them sit at the table - absolutely no television on when eating meals.
I also insist they sit down to have a drink

When I was teaching 10 year olds we did a class survey and only 3 out of 31 children regularly ate dinner sitting at a table with their parents. (One of them was my son.) Most ate from their lap whilst watching TV, few had home cooked food and most ate at different times from their parents. In my experience the socialisation of children in the UK is mostly left to the TV.