elderly in hospital

I too suffered agism in Hospital .Recovering from a colonectomy I was being helped by a physio to walk the length of the ward. She asked me in a very patronising way' Do you use a stick at home ,Dear?' 'No, I said through gritted teeth, 'At home I ride a bicycle !' I was 70 at the time. A good tip when going into hospital is to take a framed photo of yourself, looking splendid,with the grandchildren. I think we sometimes look so awful after an op. that staff can be forgiven for thinking we are older than we actually are. However that is no excuse for some of the awful things that are happenning. By the way ,is it only women who are treated so badly? My husband broke his neck in his seventies and had the most splendid treatment.

Reading all these my heart goes out to those involved, but I am a little concerned that there may be people reading this who are about to go into hospital so I want to balance things a little. My mother is 89 this year, she has had a number of treatments at different hospitals in the past 10 years and the care she has had has been incredible. If you are thinking this is probably a narrow or limited view well she's been in 5 different hospitals and visited 3 as an outpatient. The areas she has had treatment in include musculo-skeletal, haematology, maxio-facial, rheumatology and a heart unit.So fairly wide!! The treatment and care she has received has been amazing. And I am so grateful to the doctors and nurses who have cared for her and enabled her to continue to live an active and productive life. What has shocked me on my visits to hospital wards are the number of old people 'dumped' by their families.They sit without visitors or company, becoming increasingly confused and making unnecessary demands on overworked staff. A few words of advice for anyone with a relative in hospital- visit often (usually visiting hours are fairly flexible and no-one will mind if you stay longer), get to know the nurses and TALK to them (don't just complain), help out by doing things for the person you are visiting. Caring is something which works best when we all do our bit, expecting the professionals to take care of everything is totally unreasonable.

I trained as a nurse in the late 1980's and in that relatively short time the biggest damage i have seen is the regulatory bodies (who change their name but is the Quality care comission now) Thsese groups have decided to judge how well a ward is doing by tick boxes. Have you done this, did you ask the patient that,on and on. To back this up nurses are spending time sat at computers logging all this infornmtion to show the regulators when they visit. A recent panorama programme about abuse in a mental health home shows how utterly pointless this is. They ticked all the boxes and then systematicaly abused the vunerable patients in their care.
The place i last worked in the healthcare commision as they were then known would have a short visit on the ward and then spend hours looking at our paperwork
I would like to see staff that are outside of the hospital or unit work regulalry on the unit and also introduce mystery shoppers. Patients who agree to do an independant report on their experience

Hello everybody,

What a simply fascinating collection of experiences -as you might expect, we found many very worrying and some so bleak and desperately sad. The terrible things that have happen to the frail, infirm and vulnerable at the hands of the so-called caring professions deeply disturbs us.

We have our 53 years of marriage and three children in their near 50s to draw upon - especially as our daughter is a senior children's intensive care nurse and her husband a pediatrician. For many years we have pondered on the nature of the "care" the younger-generation give to our elderly - be they professional, family or friends.

Right now are actually preparing a related research project. This will not be so much about care as such ( there are very many experts and media doing this already) buit will be more about the AFFECTION felt for the ELDERLY. Common sense seems to tell us that you can't really have genuine care without affection - so we believe that to improve care, perhapswe need to start taking a closer look at the part played by affection - and that's affection generally - and way beyond medical world.

Incidentally, the 'working title' for our research will be "Affection for the elderly: the community glue?".

Any thoughts, ideas or reactions on this will be hugely appreciated and welcomed.

Thanks,
Hippo and spouse

What a relief to hear about other people's experiences. I have almost been brainwashed into thinking that I was the only one who felt there was a problem. Almost, but not quite...

I think that the rot set in when "social care" was detached from "nursing care" during the 1980s. At that point, nursing became a profession that could regard actually looking after someone as somewhat degrading.

I have had nasty experiences in my local hospital during my father's illnesses (he had vascular dementia) and more recently when my mother was hospitalised with pneumonia. In both cases I found the nurses' attitudes moving from indifferent to officious to hostile as I attempted (as politely as possible) to find out what was going on. It turned out there was quite a bit to cover up in the end.

Two things, though, stand out. First, my father, neglected just as several gransnet correspondents have described - it was impossible to discuss his condition with a nurse, so I took to looking at the folder at the end of his bed to see what (if any) treatment he was getting). The folder was then removed between my visits and I never saw it again. It turned out after he returned home the first time that his medication for dementia had been discontinued without telling us. His mental health therefore deteriorated whilst he was in hospital. The second time he was hospitalised, the same things happened. There was one difference however - this time a nurse took the time to speak to us. Unfortunately, though, she just wanted to discuss how we were going to get him removed from hospital (bed blocking) and into a private care home.

Secondly, my mother. Again I found it difficult to get anyone to talk to me, but when I did, I discovered that she was not receiving the medication prescribed by the admissions doctor, and had not been seen by any other doctor. After that, I resorted to looking at her folder, until a particularly hostile nurse demanded it back. It was, she said, confidential. Mother asked, fairly calmly, I thought, why, in that case, was it kept on a bed in an open ward. No answer was forthcoming, so I made an official complaint. It turned out that the folders were kept there in absolute contradiction of hospital policy regarding confidential information. But they were, however, convenient for the nurses...

Another thing - mother was never told about how washing facilities were organised and did not like to ask for fear of "giving trouble". So my fastidious 84 year old mother, who always starts her day with a bath or a shower, was kept unwashed for a whole week. Her self-esteem suffered, but since I could speak up for her, she eventually managed to be offered a bath. The lady in the bed opposite, who did not seem to have any relatives never had any washes either.

Jangran - you are so articulate. I found your message very moving. I shall probably need to have bowel surgery in the not-too-distant future. However, because I'm so afraid of being treated with disdain [because I'm classed as elderly and therefore likely to be a bit of a nuisance] I am hoping to goodness that I may soldier on, untreated, and continue to manage my problem as best I can. Isn't that a sad reflection on so-called modern-day health-care?

It sounds as though we need a Retired Nurses Campaign to make a loud noise about all this, but in the meantime maybe if everyone who has posted on this thread could email their story to Andrew Lansley or else their MP - or both, that would be a start. Maybe the most important thing is not only to tell the horror stories, but to tell those in power where we think the system has gone wrong.
I've never been a nurse, but I do seem to remember in the 70s, there being some concern about the new regime with SENs and SRNs; also gkal's sentence "There were male managers instead of Matrons" jumped out at me: that must have made an enormous difference. Also, an all-graduate body of nurses must have seemed a good idea at the time , but now we're hearing that they seem too posh to actually do the work! Can that policy be reversed I wonder?
Let's get campaigning, grannies!

Just realised (again!) that when you get to the "Add your comment" box it's not necessarily the end of the thread, so I've repeated stuff that's already been said. Sorry, folks! Great to read everyone's stories and ideas, anyway.

Jangran mentions a diificult problem about getting information and being told it is confidential. My mother had vascular dementia and needed us to be her ears and voice, so how was she supposed to understand what was happening and keep us informed?? I too read her notes because I had to. I understand staff have to protect a person's privacy but surely common sense has to prevail here and staff should be pleased a son or daughter wants to know what's happening.

I always went out of my way to be polite with staff and to be honest I have often wondered if that might have been part of the problem. I do wish now that I had been less naive at the beginning. I trusted people to be professional and I hate having to write now about such negative experiences. I can assure anyone who is beginning to think the problem might be in MY attitude, that I bent over backwards to see the situation from an overworked workforce, but ended up distraught by the reality that some medical staff are quite desensitised and much harder and tougher than I will ever be.

I am also concerned that whenever my mother was hospitalised I had to start all ove again giving information about my mother's medical history, being asked if she had any medical problems, even though I had lost count of how often my mother had been on the same ward in the same hospital over about 8 years! After one particularly bad spell, when she had been admitted 3 times in two and a half weeks because they kept sending her back to the Care Home even though her pneumonia was not cured, a doctor came into the cubicle and asked, "So what's the problem?" That was a low moment! What happens if an elderly person doesn't have a family member who knows her history? Who answers the questions on the admission form which takes up so much of the nurses' time as they sit there ticking endless boxes?

Perhaps when further reports are published by the CQC in September as promised, I might be comforted to hear that the vast majority of hospitals are doing a wonderful job and that my experiences and those of most of the people writing here are an aberration. But I'm not holding my breath.

I'm going on one of the cheerful forums now because I feel so depressed!!

I, too, am terrified of going to hospital or ending up in a care home. I always suspected that when the post-war bulge - as we used to be called - reached old age, the moral objection to voluntary euthanasia would suddenly disappear. After watching Panorama on the Bristol care home and contemplating the horrors that are being visited, as I write, on the old, the young and the vulnerable, I would rather commit suicide than end up confused, terrified, hungry, thirsty and lying in my own faeces being tormented or ignored by sadistic morons. The CQC is a disgrace.

We desperately need to grow Gransnet. Together we can change things; individually we will waste our energies. Advertise Gransnet on the back windows of cars; recruit in supermarkets and book clubs; let's design a Gransnet badge; let's run, hop, hobble or crawl for Gransnet and grow so big that no politician, no lazy minister will be able to hide from us.

Like so many of you I also feel guilty about putting my head in the sand. My mother died in 2009 in a private nursing home at the age of 99. But she was in Poole Hospital a few years before with a broken hip. Without her family being around she would have been totally ignored by the so called nursing staff. She was partially sighted and totally deaf. Her hearing aids whistled because they didn't fit correctly, so the nurses took them away, or rather hid them, saying the whistling annoyed the other patients. Her food was put on her trolley at the end of the bed but sometimes she was asleep and sometimes she didn't hear them. The food was rarely eaten. When they came to take away the tray they would ask why she had not eaten her lunch - she would reply she didn't know it was there - so they would take it away saying it had now gone cold. In the mornings she was put on the side chair so that the bedding could be changed. By the afternoon the bedding had still not been changed and she would have to try and sleep in an upright chair. Unless we were there to change the bed, feed her with her lunch and put in her hearing aids she could not have coped. She was in her mid nineties and was getting no care whatsoever. The nurses excuse was that they were short staffed.
I feel guilty that I accepted this excuse, but there was NO CARE whatsoever - no care because the patients were old and their voices didn't count.

I am appalled at the current state of healthcare for the elderly in the UK. We believe we are a civilised, caring and educated nation but clearly we have 'lost the plot' when it comes to caring for those in our society who have worked all their lives, paid their taxes, brought up families and who are at the stage in their lives when care is needed, find it falling hopelessly short of compassion. I fully support the call to arms to force the government to take this issue in hand.

I think a lot of the problems come down to a basic lack of imagination and empathy; the young do not want to put themselves in the situation of the elderly because they either cannot imagine, or do not want to accept, that one day they too will be old and vulnerable.

I like Hippo's posting about affection and I wondered if the staff who treat (or mistreat) older people have grandparents themselves. Is it possible that with the demise of the extended family, the generation that is supposed to do the caring has less experience of living with or near elderly relatives? I have the misfortune of living quite a long way from four out of my five grandchildren and miss them terribly when I have to leave after a visit. My parents were in the same position with my children. I'm no sociologist, but I do think that generation by generation we are losing touch with the continuum from birth to old age that we were more familiar with when we were young. Sorry, I'm rambling a bit but hope you get my point.

I began my nurse training in 1963 and qualified in 1966.I agree what all the previous posters have to say who qualified at the same time.
Nurses are not nurses now.The rot set in when the training became a degree course.What these modern nurses are studying is not nursing.

I like the idea of Gransnet taking part in campaigns such as this and displaying car stickers - or a lapel badge even. As a nation we tend to moan and grumble but overall don't actively fight our corner and this would be an ideal opportunity to reverse the trend.

What I found with my parents - and from talking to friends - that often the elderly [and younger people too] come out of hospital with more than they went in with. That happened to me 10 years ago and I'm still recovering from the effects, so what chance do the elderly have [rhetorical question]. I also found in my parents town that there appeared to be control of the medication. I remember finding my mother doolally because she was given bottles of different medicines and kept forgetting what she'd taken or hadn't taken. I made a complaint and lo! the medication arrived in blister packs. I also had to ask for medication reviews! I've been horrified at the neglect of older people. I live a long way from where my parents lived but at least they had me fighting their corner. It must be dreadful for those who have noone.

Hello again. I like the idea of us all emailing he secretary of state.

[email protected]

Politicians seem to live in cloud cuckoo land where our GPs know our needs etc. They are so busy thinking of ways to "reform" they are in danger of making things worse. My idea for saving government money is DO NOTHING. Pass no legislation at all. Shorten the parliamentary year drastically. A huge proportion of civil servants are employed solely because ministers want to change things. They are working on projects for ministers and on implementing legislation. Ho hum. They won't do that will they because changing things is what tiggers like best. it makes them feel important.

Nursing has definitely changed. My MIL, bless her, before she became the long suffering, frail and brave person she is today was a ward sister in London. The only one of 7 sisters to leave home and have a career.

Last winter she was admitted to hospital at death's door with pancreatitis. 2 days later, still a lot woozy and ill ("How did i get here Jess?" "In an ambulance with me. Blue lights flashing. Everyone had to get out of the way!") said "Why is it Jess that I feel as if I need to organise these girls (the nurses) - they've got no routine!"

I'm sure she was a fantastic nurse in her day. She also tells a story about getting locked in a children's ward where there was an outbreak of gastroenteritis, for several days. They did have hospital bugs in those days - but imagine locking the staff in and making them stay on duty until the outbreak was over!

On the subject of MIL I remember when she had her first hip replaced . 2 days later she was dressed in her own clothes and sitting in a chair. Good tip as you feel and look more like yourself in day clothes than nightwear.

You're going to have to be brave my dear and have that bowel surgery. Most of these scary stories have NOT been about people having elective surgery have they.

I can recommend a good hospital! A close relative of mine went into St Marks (part of Northwick park in Harrow). This is a large specialised bowel unit within the site of a bigger hospital. (It was originally a separate hospital) Best thing my relative ever did as they are world class experts in bowel surgery and she needed something tricky done. I don't recall any complaints about the nursing (and being one herself, I would have) and they did a great job on the surgery. One of the good things the last bunch did was introduce the possibility of choosing where you have treatment.

Me again. Had a bath and a think. Suggest that we send a letter with a standard opening plus personal experiences to sec of state. I have drafted something. Any thoughts? Suggestions for improvements to letter?

Dear Andrew

I am writing to you as an individual and as a member of a fast-growing social networking site called Gransnet. As a group we are very concerned about poor levels of care in some NHS wards and in particular the care received by the oldest members of the community. Some of us have experienced this personally and many of us have witnessed it when older relatives and friends have been hospitalised.

Specifically our concerns centre on poor levels of basic nursing care. This includes inadequate feeding and provision of fluids, failing to ensure that patients are clean and comfortable and ignoring requests for care, such as being taken to the toilet. Failures in this area leads to more prolonged hospital stays and greater dependency when discharged, both of which incur additional costs to the public purse. Communication with hospital staff is also often an issue for patients and relatives. There is the more general issue about dignity and compassion. We know you cannot legislate for compassion. You are though in a position to press for better basic care.

I would like to share with you some of my recent experiences:

1. When visiting my mother-in-law in a rehabilitation unit we found her shaking with distress and pain because her request to be taken to the toilet had been forgotten. She was unable to reach her call button – it had been left out of her reach etc etc This was in a unit where there were plenty of nurses who had no acute patients to worry about. Etc etc

We are aware that the Quality Care Commission is currently reviewing dignity and nutrition issues and that their preliminary findings reflect our concerns. Current management and regulatory systems do not seem to be working. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts and plans in this area. I sincerely hope that the issue of health service reform will not distract you from this vital issue.

I am copying my concerns to my MP and to the Chief Executives of the Trusts involved.

Jess Thank you for your time and effort. You are pointing we Gransnetters in the right direction. I shall give the matter serious thought this afternoon and do as you suggest. I'm ready...let us do our very best to make our voices heard.

Me too. Jess' letter is great, and we can add our own experiences.

I shall write an e-mail now.

My MP is George Osborne!

No, supernana, don't be at all afraid of surgery - my mother, so badly neglected when hospitalised for pneumonia, had surgery for bowel cancer in the same hospital a year or so earlier, and she was treated as a queen!

She recovered fully, and was entirely happy about her treatment.

The problem, I think, is in the general wards that, almost by definition, are full of old people, many with dementia. I wonder if that is where the laziest, most unempathic nurses end up because the hospital gets fewer complaints about them there?

Jangran Thank you for your kind words. A friend has persuaded me to go ahead and have the treatment for my condition. As it is my 70th and my eldest son's 50th birthday celebration sometime soon and I've promised to take care for our newest grandson on three occasions over the summer months, I shall go ahead with sorting myself out very shortly thereafter.

Well, supernana, congratulations on making a difficult decision. But you may as well make a start on it now, given the length of time you may have to wait...

But, when you are in hospital, remember you are a secret agent for gransnet!

By the way, everyone. If you want to follow Jess' excellent suggestion, you will need to visit this site:

http://www.info.doh.gov.uk/contactus.nsf/response?openform

Lansley will not reply to personal e-mails unless you are one of his constituents.

My mother, then 88, broke her leg and hip bowling. They were fixed with metal rods and pins and the surgeon was very pleased with the job he had done and told her he was including her case at a conference. Unfortunately Mum contracted MRSA and needed five further operations to remove her hip and all the metal work necessitating a long hospital stay.

There were two problems, trying to call for a bed pan and getting food. She was in a sideroom because of the MRSA and was very distressed one evening when I arrived because she had wet the bed after waiting an hour and forty minutes. The nurse said she was not to worry as "we all have these little accidents" Mum was cross as "I am not some incontinent old lady".The next time she couldn't get anyone's attention, in desperation she tried to pee in a plastic coffee mug, spilt it and got yelled at. Humiliation. They brought in a commode eventually, but she needed help getting to it as she was wired and tubed up. When again after an hour of waiting for help, she tried to get to it herself, there was no pan in the chair and again an accident.

She missed at least one meal a day. When I complained one evening, a nurse apologised and when I followed her out she was making up a sandwich meal for my mother from the leftovers on a stack of trays waiting be be taken away. I gave up complaining and took a cold meal in every evening. She lost two stone whilst in hospital and said she no longer had any appetite, but when we got her home she ate a trencherman sized mixed grill straight off.

She insisted that I didn't complain as "the nurses are run off their feet" Over the two years she was in and out of hospital, she said that staff numbers and moral had dropped noticeably.

After 12 months her original surgeon redid the operation and I am happy to report she is her usual bright self, but recently she fell after a mild stroke, and didn't press her alarm which is around her neck. Her excuse was that she would rather die on the floor in her own place than go back into hospital.

PS to the above. The final operation my Mum had was in a MRSA free private hospital where the nursing was superb.