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elderly in hospital

(337 Posts)
mamanC Thu 26-May-11 20:39:32

I have spent today full of anger and frustration after hearing the news of the publication of reports on the appalling treatment of the elderly in far too many NHS hospitals.

If you have never experienced such "care" can and wonder if it's all being exaggerated, can I assure you that, after 8 years negotiating the whole system of elderly care both in hospital and in Care Homes when my mother began her nightmare decline,that I witnessed first-hand what the reports are telling us now. And boy are those reports telling the truth.

I swore I would try to do something to alert people to it all after my mother died in 2006, but in fact I just turned my face to the wall I think, emotionally worn out by it all and so utterly saddened by the callousness and cruelty I witnessed.

But it suddenly occured to me today that gransnet might be just the place to ask everyone to bang the drum so loudly that we stop what is happening and offer our voice in support of those good people who work in hospitals and care homes who are trying against the odds to improve matters.Mind, if one more "manager" spouts about "issues to be adressed" and "systems are in place" I shall scream. And if anyone visiting these places notices anything which makes them feel uncomfortable, please drop the polite English demeanour and speak up.

Joan Sun 16-Oct-11 23:15:26

Quote
A call alarm by the bed, a phone on the wall preprogrammed with my number, these put her back in control. A warden rang every morning to check she was all right, and visited if she was not.

Yes, my Mum had all this in her council pensioner flat in West Yorkshire in the 1980s and 1990s. It really helped her stay happy and independent. Eventually she got severe stroke related dementia and went to a state run nursing home where she was treated with the utmost kindness until she died aged 94 in 2004. Luckily she never spend much time in a hospital.

I think things have gone downhill since then. Is anything happening as a result of exposing all this? This thread has 11 pages of valuable insight into an appalling problem which simply cannot be allowed to go on. I agree with RAF, and I think everyone should send a printed copy of the whole thread (if this is allowed on the forum) to their local MP and demand action from them.

When any concern starts to go downhill the cause is always management. money does come into it a little, but a good attitude costs no more than a bad one. Nurses and doctors did not suddenly become indifferent; they reflect the ethos of their workplace. Change has to come from the top, because it seems that staff members who are caring and efficient just get labelled as 'soft' under current conditions.

Carol Sun 16-Oct-11 23:01:37

Yes, I think we should bring this to their attention, and collectively via Gransnet may bring some responses. What do others think? Is this something we Gransnetters can do? It's easy to contact your local MP and I have always had a reply from the House of Commons - recently, when I complained about childcare costs and reduced child tax credits, I had two letters back from two different MPs.

RAF Sun 16-Oct-11 22:51:27

That's so kind Carol. I just wish no one else had to go through that, but I fear it is happening in hospitals all over the UK now.

When I was a nurse in the late 60s, we were trained that if a patient became upset and started crying, you swiftly pulled the curtains, put an arm round them and did your best to comfort them. Now I suspect nurses are told not to touch the patient except in the cause of one of their treatment targets.

Perhaps if we all bombarded our MPs with a demand that they read this thread?

Carol Sun 16-Oct-11 21:03:21

Dear RAF, you're story is harrowing and brings me to tears. I am so sorry that you and your lovely family had to endure such terrible treatment. I can't find any words that would explain or rationalise how you have all been treated. There may be someone else reading this who can bring you some comfort or help you to come to terms with these experiences, but I am left thinking that all nurses should understand this is the consequence of them not prioritising their patients over all else, and the powers that be need to understand that their managerial skills do not lie in the ability to allocate resources, but to be compassionate and have the strength to ditch harmful policies when they learn that patients are suffering. I send my love and best wishes to you x

RAF Sun 16-Oct-11 19:56:55

Stung into action by this thread. I work in health informatics, and care of the elderly is seen as something to be managed in patients own homes as hospital/nursing home care will be unaffordable to the nation. Yes it is technically possible to wire up your loo so that if you haven’t used it by 10.00 am an alarm sounds in a call centre. Would I have wanted that for my mother? No. Dignity is very important to us all, but even more so as you get older and you lose a lot of sense of respect and self worth. We cannot rely on technology to replace decent care. If my mother was unlikely to have got herself up, then she should not be on her own anyway. A call alarm by the bed, a phone on the wall prepr0grammed with my number, these put her back in control. A warden rang every morning to check she was all right, and visited if she was not.

My mother suffered depression, followed by Parkinson’s and then dementia, brought on by the drugs to treat the depression. She was admitted for respite to a local hospital. After a weekend home leave, we brought her back to find someone in her bed – the staff had moved her in her absence without telling anyone. She was lost. The following day I could not find her. I asked the staff where she was – they did not know. I found her hunched on the floor of the corridor, rocking in her distress. She had no idea where her bed or the loo were. I took her home. One week later one of the patients murdered another one on her ward. CCTV cameras? You would need someone watching them 24/7 and ready to leap into action the moment someone appeared in distress. That resource would be better used patrolling the wards and speaking to patients, addressing their concerns. We raided savings and she went into a nursing home where the staff treated her as a much respected member of the family, there was always someone checking on her, encouraging her to take an interest in life. She died there with dignity, cared for and well tended. They did not need cameras to snoop, just enough caring staff.

My father was admitted to hospital following a very minor heart attack. He had been completely independent, just come back from a cruise. I visited in A and E and he was laughing and joking with the nurses. I handed over his repeat order prescription list from the GP to the staff. I received a phone call from the ward later that day asking me to discipline him as he was being a nuisance. His crime? Getting out of bed three times during the afternoon to ask what was happening and when he could go home. I asked to see his drug chart, and none of his usual drugs was on there. The following couple of days he seemed drowsy and not himself. He was sitting in a soaking wet pyjama jacket with food down the front, an hour after they cleared away dinner. They blamed the drowsiness on a urinary infection. Bit strange for a totally continent man to get this? I looked at his chart – still none of his 11 usual drugs, but he had been prescribed the ‘chemical cosh’ prochlorperazine, to keep him quiet. He was beginning to suffer the side effects of this, jumpy movements that made him spill his tea, which distressed him. His urine infection got worse, they put him in nappies with no pyjama trousers and left him sitting like this in a chair. My 25 year old daughter went to visit him and he asked her if she could get the nurses to get him a bottle. She asked at the nursing station, they said they were busy, would get round to it. My father was getting distressed, my daughter went back again and asked if she could get him a bottle. They refused to let her, and said they would come when they could. Eventually he could hold on no longer and peed on the floor in front of her. That is her last memory of yher grandfather.

That night the patient opposite was visited by the consultant team during visiting hours, and in front of everyone told that he would have to give up his house, sell it and pay for nursing home care as he was blocking the bed. They swept out, leaving him alone in tears in front of all the visitors. The following day a home visit was organised for my father to assess whether he could live at home. Still suffering the effects of the prochlorperazine, although I had persuaded them to stop it the day before, he spilled some milk making a cup of tea. That was deemed sufficient to determine he could not live on his own. His drug chart now revealed that he was being treated for Parkinson’s, which he had never had. When I asked why, they mentioned the extrapyramidal effects, which they had induced with their own drug treatment. Still none of his heart and BP medication on there.

I visted the following evening and my father was axious and upset. I promised I would do everything I could to get him home with support. The staff summoned me for a meeting and told me that to send him home would cost social services more money... I said somehow I would find the means to support him privately. Still no sign of his usual heart, BP medication etc on his chart. I had requested the next day off from the PCT where I worked to sort out his care.

At 3.20 am I received a call saying his condition had deteriorated and the doctors were with him. I went to brush my teeth before coming in. Five minutes later the phone rang again – he was dead. The couldn’t understand how it had happened, they had assessed him fit for discharge to a nursing home.....
They had attempted resuscitation on an 89 year old with prostate cancer but it had failed.

I am a professional health informatician, I am well aware of all the telemonitoring devices being piloted. These projects aren’t cheap. I used to be a nurse, in the days when patients came first. All the technology and policies in the world would not have helped my parents. Web cams are for monitoring endangered species, not humans. But valuing their dignity, treating them like fellow human beings, not animals, would have made their last days so different. And I suspect my father might have made his 90th birthday......

Gally Sun 16-Oct-11 18:05:07

Oh Bags trust you to talk dirty shock

bagitha Sun 16-Oct-11 18:00:47

Very dirty if the bedpans have been in use as bedpans before being used as splatpans!

supernana Sun 16-Oct-11 17:42:35

Indeedydo...here we go! GN army of trifle with me at your peril persons are rallying to the fight the good fight...and sometimes, fights get dirty!grin

Jangran Sun 16-Oct-11 16:12:19

Here we go, here we go, here we go....!

Gally Sun 16-Oct-11 16:07:38

supernana - polishing mine ready for action - not for personal use of course - just as a weapon grin

supernana Sun 16-Oct-11 15:54:49

grin Tell you what, if anyone is unkind to me during my stay, I shall summon GNetters to my bedside. We would present a force not to be ignored. Watch out for flying bedpans!!!

Annobel Sun 16-Oct-11 15:06:46

Yes! Send out an SOS if they aren't good to you, super and we'll send a posse to deal with them! hmm

Jangran Sun 16-Oct-11 15:00:51

Yeah, I know you are, Supernana. Let me know if you have any trouble. I shall hasten to your side!

supernana Sun 16-Oct-11 14:10:00

Jangran - I shall be having further surgery early next year. I shall be mindful of the needs of other patients. I shall also be taking note of anyone being disrespectful and neglectful. I'm prepared to be a whistle blower. Surely, we as a group of caring individuals, could, MAKE A DIFFERENCE

Jangran Sun 16-Oct-11 13:44:03

And over and over and over.

Let it be established, once and for all, that patients whose relatives do not visit have enough problems, and do not need them exacerbated by careless, neglectful and unsympathetic nursing.

For the rest, including my mother and father - we visited every day, and every day found evidence of neglect - not just to them, but to other patients on the ward.

We also found that it is true - nurses take a break during visiting hours, and therefore feel they are justified in being irritated if patients' relatives "pester" them about what is happening to mum or dad.

It would be a good idea if nurses deliberately patrolled wards when visitors are there, especially when the patient is elderly and/or suffering from dementia, so that they could discuss, with the patient's spokesman, issues relating to the care of the patient. I suppose that is why they do not - it would give additional trouble.

Most days, after visiting, I visited the nurses' station to try and find out answers to the many questions I had - such as why my mother had not yet seen a doctor, or why my father had not had his memory drugs, despite the fact that we had taken them in with him. Each time, I found it unnerving, despite being a "middle class" woman used to dealing with professionals. The reason it was unnerving was because I knew that the response would be of the "why do you keep pestering" type at best and the "you are really wasting our time" type at worst. I was never allowed to feel that my questions were legitimate, or that I had any business making enquiries about my parent's care. That was the worst feeling.

Yes, I persisted, but the only result was that the responses became more and more hostile - I never really found out any proper answers. Often if I were given any kind of an answer, I would be told the opposite the next day, and if I pointed that out, the nurse would simply repeat the answer she had given as if I were an idiot that had simply failed to understand properly. Over time, that reduced my confidence to ask anything. Especially since my questions made NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to the way my parents were treated.

irishingrid Sun 16-Oct-11 07:44:38

I too have witnessed many appalling attitudes towards the elderly and experienced them myself.
My dad, a father of nine children, who had worked hard all his life and served during the war, was treated so badly it killed him.
He had prostate cancer which was operated on by a 78 year-old specialist, who should have been retired. We were telephoned in the middle of the night as my dad had become seriously ill and it bacame apparent that the consuiltant had cut into a blood vessel and was dealt with only when the swelling was noticed by a night nurse. My father had been complaining about the pain all day and we were constantly told that it was just post op pain and he would be given stronger pain killers. My dad never complained about understandable pain but was labelled as a complainer. I feel sick when I think of what he had gone through and we could nothing about it.
When the error was discovered and repaired he improved but died a couple of weeks after it. I went to my GP and related much of what had happened and he told me that I could write but it would make no difference.
I hate hospital and my experience of a lot of nurses is that they pigeon-hole patients so that they excuse their poor treatment of them. Those who see it as a true vocation are few and far between.

glammanana Sat 15-Oct-11 23:11:20

And well done you Joan for doing so all it take's is a little bit of empathy and the world would be a far nicer place

Joan Sat 15-Oct-11 23:03:19

Janan - your post could very well hold the key to the problem: peer pressure among the professionals. It certainly rang a bell with me.

I was a patients' trust account clerk in a large NZ comprehensive psychiatric hospital in the 1970s. The work involved looking after patients' financial affairs and giving them their weekly 'spend' or comforts as we called it. There was a fair amount of interaction as, for example, they could come to my office any time to get some of their own money, if they had any.

I was often berated in the accounts office for being 'nice' to the patients. Apparently a haughty indifference was the norm, but all I saw were people with an illness, sometimes severe, who needed looking after.

Until I read your post, I did not relate that experience to this thread, but now I do.

Anyway, I ignored the miserable buggers in the office!!

janan Sat 15-Oct-11 16:24:38

I have just spent the last 1/2 hour reading all the heart rending experiences of Gransnet contributors and can confirm I have experienced the same uncaring treatment both on a personal level (my Father) and on a professional one. I was in Occupational Therapy on Care of the Elderly wards for some 18/20 years and was constantly appauled at the neglect of elderly patients. More recently I worked as a Ward Housekeeper (not an elderly ward) and tried to care for the more vulnerable patients (the older ones) with the affection, time and care they lacked from the qualified staff and was very often met with open hostility for bringing , what staff felt were, insignificant requests. I felt I fought a constant battle and was labelled 'soft' by many staff members. I am fully behind anything that will bring about a change but know that until we recruit genuine empathetic people in our hospitals, all the money, courses or qualifications in the world will not make people care.

HappyNanna Sat 15-Oct-11 15:46:02

MamanC - sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention to do so. I was merely stating facts when I said how my Dad had been treated during his recent stay in hospital. I gave no advice as to how to behave towards NHS staff or made any suggestions about visiting relatives. Obviously, I feel for everyone who experienced poor care and apathy for their relative and would be willing to offer support to any campaign to ensure good care for the elderly.

Annobel Sat 15-Oct-11 12:43:30

Whether or not relatives visit is irrelevant to the treatment elderly people receive. They should not need to have someone watching every move of the nursing staff. ALL people should receive equally excellent treatment under our NHS, though I fear that the latest failure of nerve by the Lords will not bring this ideal any closer.

mamanC Sat 15-Oct-11 12:20:43

As the person who started this thread back in May, could I please ask Trisher and others like her who have had the good fortune to come across good care, not to disparage the people on this forum who have done all they can to visit their relatives as you advise, to forge relationships with NHS staff and who have, nonetheless been so terribly let down and appallled by the neglect and cruelty they have witnessed. The latest report completely backs up what I and others have seen and everyone should be focusing now on finally changing things. I know there are people who dump their elderly relatives. I didn't. Praise the good practice you have seen but listen, please listen, to what the overwhelming majority of people are saying and don't allow anyone any wriggle room for excuses.

HappyNanna Fri 14-Oct-11 22:53:17

Wow! I'm really shocked at all these stories. My 92 year old Dad has just spent 12 weeks on a mental health ward (NHS) suffering from depression. He was being assessed and his medication was adjusted. He developed psychotic symptoms and started to refuse food and drink because he believed they were trying to poison him. His food and fluid intakes were monitored regularly. He also became doubly incontinent and needed cleaning up regularly. He has now moved to a care home as my 90 year old Mum can no longer care for him at home. I only give you this background because I have nothing but praise for the way my Dad was treated. The staff were wonderful from the nursing manager down to the lady who did the laundry. My Dad was always treated with care and dignity. We could talk to the nurses about my Dad's care whenever we wanted to and nothing was too much trouble for them. We also had a weekly meeting with my Dad's psychiatrist and were always kept informed if they were about to change his medication. My Dad had a key-worker who phoned me regularly to let me know of Dad's progress. Of course, I feel for everyone who has a sad story to tell and I am very worried that my family may have to experience this at some stage.

nannysgetpaid Fri 14-Oct-11 22:39:25

Well done Joan. We are in the process of going through the complaints proceedure not with an elderly relative but our 38 year old son who was over three years given so many pain killing drugs that he was dependent on them and unable to see what was happening. We had no issues with the nursing staff who were caring and considerate to us all. Our problem was that lack of communication every time he was admitted and the failure to read his notes caused a situation where the pain killers were in fact causing the pain resulting in the need for more pain killers. We too did our research but initally it was ridiculed by the doctors and only when the ward sister looked further into it did we get results. To see my adult and normally healthy son crying and saying "what's happening to me mum" was something I would not like to see again. One of the staff nurses was in tears when she realised that what they had been doing had caused the situation. I used to dread the weekends when there were only junior doctors on and they only treated the symtoms they saw and made sure that one of us was there as much as we could be. We did not "hand over our son" but we certainly expected him to be looked after. As the substance abuse nurse told us the NHS had let him down and I intend to see that they have learned from that mistake and put proceedures in place to stop it happeningto others. Sorry for my rant.

Joan Fri 14-Oct-11 21:54:54

I sent a letter to the hospital detailing the problems. I certainly agree about 'Don't leave their side' but I had other obligations so was only with him 2 or 3 hours a day.

The letter is shown below. They took it seriously and promised to send the nurse in question for 'in service training', whatever that means, and deal with the other problems. When he went in for a second knee replacement a year later, in the same ward, they treated him very very well. And it was quieter at night. I think the secret was to be polite but firm in the letter, and to suggest solutions.

^Dear Hospital Administrator

I would like to discuss my husband’s care, while he was an orthopaedic patient at your hospital, from March 27th to March 30th,

He had a total knee replacement, for which he received excellent medical service, and was then transferred to ward 7D, bed 26, where he began to recover as quickly as he possibly could. Many of the nurses were really caring people, but there were some problems.

The first night, a few hours after the operation, he woke up thirsty and needed ice or water, but was unable to reach the nurse call button, as it had been put on the bedside cabinet, which had then been pushed out of reach to give staff easier access to the drip. One nurse did see him to ask if he was OK, but he was unable to answer, as his mouth and tongue were so dry. She went away, believing he was fine. However, this night of thirst turned out to be the least of his problems.

During the stay he remembered just one visit from a doctor (a woman) who showed extreme consternation at the small amount of painkillers he had been prescribed, and immediately changed it on the chart, went away to tell someone about the revised medication regime, then brought his chart folder back. At the next medication time he had to inform the nurse that the medication had been changed – she had not taken the trouble to look at the chart.

Unfortunately, my husband suffers from agoraphobia, which is an anxiety condition that has been diagnosed by a government psychiatrist. This condition is recorded repeatedly in his hospital notes, and we reminded everyone that we came into contact with about it, up until the operation. Because of T’s condition I have a carer’s pension in order to look after him, and I think I would be remiss in my caring if I did not draw your attention to some problems in the ward, that have left him with severe anxiety.

This condition is not something that affects him all the time – he can interact with people most of the time, but when under stress, he becomes severely anxious, needs to be alone, and is vulnerable to panic attacks. Some of the nursing staff were obviously unaware of what agoraphobia entails. When a nurse came to take his blood pressure on Sunday afternoon March 29th and opened the curtains, he asked her to close them, explaining he was having an agoraphobic attack. She abruptly refused, stating she could not see properly with the curtains shut. He insisted, as it was light enough, and he was slowly losing control and heading towards a panic attack. She closed them with much ill-will. He tried to explain about the agoraphobia, but she seemed not to understand. She took his BP and dispensed medication, then ‘flounced’ out, leaving the curtains open anyway.

After this happened he went into a complete panic attack and did the only safe thing he could do: he dragged himself a to the toilet, the nearest small enclosed space, to be alone. On the way he passed the same nurse who was just finishing with another patient: she made some sarcastic comment about being out of bed, whereas my husband suggested she go and find out what agoraphobia was. He does not remember her name, just that she was young, dark haired, and was on duty the Saturday, Sunday, and Monday afternoon shifts, March 28th to 30th.

He stayed in the toilet for a good 15-20 minutes with the light out, and then dragged himself and his bad leg back to his bed, and just sat there bringing himself back under control for about an hour. Although a little empathy, kindness and understanding could have prevented all this suffering, he realised later that during the whole episode, no-one had enquired about his condition.

There have been very few such severe attacks in the past, but to give an example, one at home a year or two ago was once so severe he was rushed to hospital in an ambulance because it looked like a heart attack. The reason for these attacks is unknown, but stressful situations bring them on.

The ward was also very hot and airless, and when he mentioned this to the same nurse, when he was being discharged, she blamed him for having his curtains closed, an attitude which further exacerbated his agoraphobia, especially as he knew he was just as hot with or without the curtains closed.

There is an immense amount of noise during the night. The first night he woke up with a start, at the sound of metallic clanging, and staff calling out to one another. He managed to get back to sleep, then at about 2.30am to 3.00am the cleaning staff came on, and made no attempt to be quiet, banging doors etc. This seems to be an organisational problem that needs to be addressed, because patients need to be able to sleep to aid recovery. He did mention this to the male nurse who gave him his early morning meds: he simply looked down at my husband, and said: “ We’ll see if we can do something about it.” Then he started to walk away, half turned, and in a superior manner went on to say: “You must realise, of course, that these people have a job to do!”, as if banging doors, clanging metal, and loud conversation in the middle of the night, was something patients must endure. In hindsight, the total lack of respect and consideration was hard for my husband to endure.

Another problem with recovery is the severe constipation he has suffered since being in hospital. In the end, I checked online to see if the painkillers could be causing this. I found out that at least one of the painkillers he was given, Endone, an opiate, is known to cause constipation, because their official site warns about this. I rang a local pharmacist and was told he should be taking Coloxil-with-Senna, while taking the painkillers. He has started on Coloxil now, and is bearing the extreme pain rather than increase the constipation, but remains constipated. (April 1).

Obviously this remedial action was not applied on time: he, and another patient in the ward who was also complaining about constipation should have been taking something from the start. But the nurses, when told about the constipation, just said: “Don’t worry about it – it is just the pain killers”.

The first time T actually asked for a laxative, they said ‘alright’ and that was the last he heard. The second time was by the nurse-in-charge on the night shift. She listened to him and promised laxatives, but it was a while later that he got them. She apologised profusely for the delay, saying they had been very busy. One fellow patient went home on the Monday like T did, and had been constipated by then for 6 days. He was given no laxatives. It was only our own online research from the drugs’ official sites that warned us about the link between constipation and painkillers, and the need to take laxatives at the same time.

Most people suffer and say nothing, because the stress of hospitalisation overtakes all other considerations. But I feel you should be informed of these problems, or they will never be addressed. Meanwhile I am trying to get my husband back to normal: I have no psychiatric expertise and struggle to help him effectively, but at least he knows I care, and that is helping him recover.

Right now ( April 2nd) my husband is in extreme pain, still constipated, very irritable, sick, and especially irritable because a call to 13 Health informed him that if after following certain procedures his condition is not relieved, he may well have to go back to hospital. This is something he could not bear right now. In the end, it took Coloxyl with Senna and three suppositories to relieve the constipation.



It is now April 13th: my husband is still suffering from acute agoraphobia, and has had two more panic attacks. Before surgery he had these conditions under control, but now he is unable to leave the house without taking Valium, doing deep breathing exercises, and having me close by his side. He has reverted to the state he was in several years ago, such as waking in the night needing me to help him through a panic attack. Panic attics involve cold sweats, rapid breathing, and a rapid heart beat. He is also still in great pain in his entire right leg.

On April 6th we had to go to our GP, Dr Sucy Mohan, for T to have a check up and to get more painkillers. A friend came to take us there: it took three attempts to get T through the house door. Eventually he managed by staring at the ground and walking between the two of us. On seeing his condition Dr Mohan issued him with further medication to help control the anxiety and agoraphobia.

We were going to try to forget the awful hospital stay, but now the panic attacks are back, and can happen three or 4 times a day, after years of mastering them, which has upset us greatly, and we feel the one nurse mainly responsible for this should be made aware of her terrible mistake in not knowing what agoraphobia and panic attacks entail.

It seems such a shame that the wonderful care and empathy in the pre-operation area, the excellent medical procedure, and the caring kindness of many of the nurses should be spoilt by some bad attitudes, and a lack of understanding of the patient’s other conditions.

In summary, I would suggest the following changes to post operative care:

*Ensure all the nursing staff are aware of patients’ other conditions, and take them into consideration, rather than any staff showing annoyance and distain.

*Ensure immediate post-operative patients can reach the nurse call button, and ensure they have enough water or ice.

*Nurses should check the patients’ charts for changes.

*Consider offering laxatives with opiates.

* Try to get the air conditioning in the ward to work.

Yours sincerely^