In my day things were done in order.

I think the message from this thread has been that there isn't a regimented ideal. What works well for people is good. What doesn't work is not good. "Rules" that so-called higher powers (ha!) try to impose on people can be disregarded nowadays. Thank goodness for that. On another thread some of us argued that being "married" is not about having a marriage certificate; it's about a commitment to bring up kids together. Plenty of people get "married" in the official sense and then split up and plenty of people bring up their kids in a perfectly satisfactory manner without ever having had a "marriage" certificate. Logical conclusion: we don't need rules imposed by "higher powers". We can manage without.

I've nothing against "official" marriage. I'm married myself. But I've nothing against unofficial marriage either. And young girls/women who find themselves alone and in a fix should be helped because that's the good and civilised thing to do in a good and civilised society.

Baggy said:
And young girls/women who find themselves alone and in a fix should be helped because that's the good and civilised thing to do in a good and civilised society.

Yes, I agree completely - but that is the attitude that was sadly missing in my youth. I was lucky - I never got pregnant while single - mainly because I believed in taking precautions and NEVER took a risk. I think this put me in the bad girl category - it was the 'good' girls who got pregnant because they didn't plan anything!!

I know my in laws-to-be were utterly horrified just after we told them we were getting married. It seemed to them to be in a rush, and they asked if I was pregnant. I said "No, not a chance, I'm on the pill" Well, the shocked silence and looks of horror!! My husband explained to me later that they were a bit old fashioned, and my being on the pill seemed to them to be the height of modern decadence.

Of course, I had another sin marked up against me. We are all from Yorkshire, but when I went to meet the in laws I'd just got back from a 4 month translating job in Vienna, and having spoken nothing but German for all that time, my Yorkshire accent was almost gone. It came back after a few weeks, but the damage was done. Posh and naughty - unforgivable!

I think a legalized marriage is less easy to run away from than when a couple is just living together. It doesn't have to be a church wedding. Religion needn't come into it.

It is better for the children. I'm convinced of the fact.

Look at it another way, Jangly. A legalized marriage is less easy to escape from.

There's nothing illegal about living together as a couple. So what do you mean by legalised marriage? Of course, I do know what you mean really. The only thing that makes it more difficult to split up if you have a marriage certificate is the legal aspect, which can cost a lot of money. Even that doesn't stop people divorcing. Looks like a good argument not to get married to me!

I agree with jangly that the best thing is for children to have a loving and commited family. We only disagree about what counts as commited. jangs thinks a legal document is necessary (or at least, better); bags thinks those pieces of paper are just pieces of paper which help to make lawyers rich.

But Baggy, you're more likely to get the money side of things properly sorted if you are married and can go through a solicitors.

Or perhaps you can do that anyway, married or not.

Still, I got me views and I'm sticking to 'em.

Marriage was created to protect the woman and children surely, the way to protect yourself outside of marriage is to draw up legal documents .. more like a business arrangement. I see where you are coming from jangly

Lawyers will do pretty much anything (legal) for you so long as you pay them. You stick to your views, jangs old bean. I'm open to convincing argument from the opposing side and have often changed my view based on evidence (or lack of it), reasoning and rationality. I intend to carry on like that.

You have a valid argument there, harri, but until divorce became easier, marriage often trapped women too.

DON'T CALL ME OLD BEAN! grrrr!

Bagitha Turkey.

(that's something to do with my poem. I can't remember what)

I like Bagitha so much I'm tempted to change my name!

he he he!

They won't let you.

To make sure that everything was financially safe and that each of the children would receive equally after our deaths (although 2 are not DH's), we made a will. This was all done correctly at the solicitor's. DH and I just didn't want to get married. We saw no point. I still see no point. harrigran describes this as being 'more like a business arrangement. If love can be included in a business arrangement, then that's what we have! 'One bite at the cherry' of marriage was definitely enough for us both. I ran away very easily from my 'legalised' marriage. I ran (literally) very fast indeed. It was as easy as that.

em - I think you're right about adoption. When I was growing up, it was quite common for children to be adopted, even if there were other "natural" children in the family. It was seen as a positive thing, as i recall. I think the difference between then and now is that now we seem to be far more "entitled" as a society, and that rights are given preferentially to birth parents, regardless of ability to raise a happy child. There does seem to be a trend, perpetuated by the media, towards viewing the birth mother as the "real" one, even though adoptive parents are legal parents. I think this is really sad, and undermines the role that adoptive parents play in society.

I have seen childless people desperate for children and unable to concieve or adopt, and I have seen a friend of mine find her "birth" mother only to be rejected.

*Granzilla" I do apologise, I have limited time here, and tend to "scan read". No excuse I know, so sorry again!

No need to say sorry Phoenix.We've all done it. Please don't be upset.Come on girl, we're Net Grans not the bad assed Net Mums.