to be screaming silently

My DS1 went and had an ear pierced when he was 15, without my permission - the shop believed he was older and he looked it. What could I do but shrug my shoulders? I had far more important things to occupy my mind. Now he is a respectable middle-aged dad and the piercing is long forgotten. Believe me, em, they do eventually grow up.

DS had an ear piercing when he was young and my DD had a nose stud. I burst into tears when I saw my son's ear and everyone was rather unhappy for a while. By the time DD had her nose stud I just said''That's very pretty, Dear''. Both of them have given up their piercings and are non the worse for it. Try and keep cool and calm,Em, it's better in the long run. Just remembered , DGN had a lip stud which he has also given up.

I agree em 14 is too young. My D2 wanted her tongue pierced when she was 17, I was totally against it and said NO. She had it done at 18 when she was legally able to, she also got a belly button stud thing. She has taken both out now. None of my children have tattoos so far and only one of my sils has any tatoos. My youngest daughter mentioned she liked the idea of having her children's names tattooed on her arm. Why would you, I asked her. I have to admit that I do say what I think and I believe a 14 year old would look a lot cooler, trendy, hip, hot or whatever they call it nowdays if she went her own way and was not a follower of everyone else!

Now don't get me started on circumcision.

My mother is a master of dissimulation; when my eldest daughter paid a visit to her after she'd had her nostril pierced and a small stud inserted my mother made no comment on it at all, but chatted in her usual way. However, as daughter was leaving, my mother pressed a fiver on her and whispered that she wanted her to buy vitamins with it as she suspected a vitamin shortage was responsible for the 'pimple' one her nose. Daughter explained that it was a nose stud and my mother apologised profusely, saying that when she looked very close she could of course see that, but had thought my daughter had a skin problem. The nose stud was removed within a week!!
My mum is wicked!!

I think my main problem is that I find mutilation as a fashion statement or a cultural statement just very hard to grasp. Still maintain that 14 is too young and that parents should have the guts sometimes to say NO!

There is no doubt that male circumcision does cause problems - not just directly (infection, distortion caused by scar tissue) but also long term the loss of the foreskin causes a naturally protected part of male anatomy to be subject to the rigours of chafing by pants etc. and can cause problems. So many circumcised men feel very angry about what has been done to them.

But the principle that it is legal to perform a surgical procedure for which there is no medical indication on a baby who cannot give/withdraw consent is fundamentally wrong.

It is mutilation pure and simple and should be outlawed.

The good thing about a navel piercing is that it is reversible, so of many evils that she might get up to this is relatively unproblematical. I think your anger is about your D allowing it - I know how hard it is to bite the tongue when they do things we disagree with, but it is often the best policy. It is hard for us to get our heads round the way cultural norms move on, as we do tend to live by the standards of our young days. I am sure she will be fine - just stay friends with all of them and seethe on gransnet!!

Really thinks there's no more to a navel piercing than an ear piercing -our daughter now 32 had hers done when she was 15 ( mind you her mum the doting grandma had hers done too) no harm has come of it! no criminal boyfriends no addictions no off the rails behaviour happened... all fine
Not like a tattoo or one of those brutal ear piercings that get stretched out to an inch diameter.

em I think that given this situation I would be internally seething, furious, and very miserable but I might show some interest and pretend to be fascinated rather than ignoring it.

I'd certainly want to see the belly button and ask loads of questions like 'did it hurt...how long before it heals...do you have to change the stud/ring or whatever is in it?'

An adverse reaction usually fuels rebellion... keep your cool, we're all here and understand.

Here's a link:

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

I don't think the victims of botched circumcisions would see a qualitative difference. There are many examples of boy babies in this country being mutilated by both NHS surgeons and religious leaders. There are Jewish social services agencies who provide counselling and referral advice for this problem to teenagers and men. I worked with such an agency for a short time and learned that circumcision is opposed by many Jewish people for some of the same reasons as female circumcision.

HI em my DSs both have lots of "ink". I just don't get it. But there you go.
At lease belly button piercing is instantly reversible. Unlike tats and those gruesome ear plugs that ruin the earlobe for ever. Breathe deeply, or swear loudly in the privacy of your own space. My mother once said "I'm so glad punk was not the fashion when you were a teenager, cos I know you'd have been one"

I think it is significantly different in the female version. Foreskin or no foreskin - not the end of the world. Clitoris and labia or no clitoris or labia - well that's a bit different isn't it? That is more akin to cutting off the whole penis. That;s before we get into "birth obstructed by scar tissue" and the weeks of post operative agony.
Come on folks, it is not the same at all. I don't approve of operating on baby boys but - well - the two procedures are worlds apart.
Ah well - puts belly button ring into perspective maybe...

There is a qualitative difference between so-called female circumcision and male circumcision. I don't approve of the latter except for medical reasons and would want to see it banned in this country, just as the law here does not permit cropping dogs' ears. Female circumcision causes all kinds of medical problems and is a direct result of the desire to control female sexuality. (If a woman experiences severe pain and a total lack of pleasure during intercourse, she is unlikely to be "licentious", so that way you know that your sons are your sons.) Problems resulting from poor hygiene, especially during the actual process of circumcision, urination, menstruation and childbirth are horrific.

From anecdotal evidence, circumcised males do not generally find intercourse less satisfactory than their uncircumcised fellows and certainly not painful.

My dad had a fit when I bought a lovely pair of white winkle pickers with only four inch heels. He behaved as if I was going to stand on a street corner soliciting. And me such a sober, serious teenager. No, really....

I also hate tattoos and piercings but it's today's fashion. In the case of a 14 year old - maybe it was a case of "picking your battles". I wore winklepicker shoes as soon as I could buy them myself and very mini skirts, which also horrified my parents and grandparents. I don't think any of the dreadful things they predicted would happen, did happen to me.

I wouldn't allow my daughters to have their ears pierced until they were sixteen, in spite of much nagging. On their birthdays they finally had ear-studs put in and they were ecstatic, they later said that it was something of a right of passage. interestingly they all now appreciate that they were made to wait. I forbade tattoos though on the basis that they are difficult and costly to remove (unlike piercings), but two of my daughters went on to have small tattoos done after leaving home (one since removed by laser). When one of my sons was younger he wanted to dye his hair - blue! I agreed that he could do so during the school summer holiday on condition that it was 'returned to normal' for the start of the next term. I hated it, but it allowed him an appropriate (harmless) freedom.

I have had to bite my tongue a few times and just live with it. 8-year-old GD had ears pierced last summer but has now decided to allow the holes to grow over and wait till she's older - how old, I'm not sure. Peer-group influence on GD and her mother.
When I was teaching in Kenya, our girls used to pierce each others' ears with a hot needle and pulled cotton through to keep the holes open. A steady stream of infections went up to the mission hospital. At least we don't have to face this with our families...

Yes Mishap I agree with you - female circumcision for cultural reasons is villified but not male circumcision, when it is also done for cultural reasons. I don't get it.

A big hug em I am with you all the way. As a nurse I saw some horrible things but piercings still turn my stomach.

Mishap have to agree with your comment. It's utterly abhorrent to make young girls submit to genital mutilation and I don't see that it's significantly different to mutilate boys - it's just a question of degree and all in the name of religion!

Harrigran I think that's what's upsetting me. Why do this to a very young under-age body, especially when the child has health issues? And why did both of my DDs act so irresponsibly? Only thing I can think of is that they want to be seen as the 'cool' adults while I am out in the fuddy-duddy wilderness, concerned about issues of health and inappropriate 'presents'!!

Yes - I am with you on this. I went to a jewellers once and heard screaming from a back room - a baby girl of about 1 was wheeled out screaming, having just had her ears pierced. I left the shop.

But at 14, a piercing is almost de rigueur now - and it is legal, so all her mates will have one.

Just to be really controversial - I think it is outrageous that it is legal to mutilate baby boys in the name of religion. It beggars belief that this is still within the law. It is not without its medical complications, and it is an act of mutilation undertaken without the child's consent when he is too little to know what is going on. He then has to live with the consequences for he rest of his life. I usually get accused of all sorts of "isms" when I say this - but it makes me ill to think how this could be done to babies and they have no protection.

harrigran I have often wondered how children can be burnt on sunbeds, and injured by piercings, without some protective legislation being formulated to ensure their adult parents behave responsibly. Seems that they can even get piercing infections that need medical treatment, but no-one in authority bats an eyelid.

Why in heaven's name would anybody want to mutilate their body when they are so young ? I have said this several times before, if we personally injured a child we would be on an assault charge. Give permission for someone else to do it and it is fine, cock-eyed. Nothing you can do em back to biting the tongue, after all what do we oldies know

I think a bit of humour is called for here - what's done is done and there is no point in seeking confrontation. Sometimes they do these things to invoke a reaction, so least said and all that...

Fashions change, and what is comparitively normal and middle-of-the-road to a 14 year old now seems worrying and way-out to us. I know some lovely girls (nurses, professionals etc.) who have them and they do not suddenly turn into ogres/tarts or whatever. I also know some grandmas with them!!!

It could be worse - we used to receive the BMJ every week and they have a Christmas edition which often contains humorous items - one year it was photos of piercings - believe you me, a navel piercing is the least of your worries - you simply would not believe the places that bits of metal appear!!!!

I think that behind all this is your concern that your GD is allowed too much of her own way and that you fear she may go off the rails - this may be so, but I would not regard a navel piercing as a sign of bad things to come. Her Mum is probably trying to understand the culture in which this young lady has to operate and to be sympathetic to her need to be one of the crowd.

Best to be light-hearted about it I think. I really do not think there is anything to worry about here. Give her a hug and have some fun with her - much more important than one small piece of metal that won't be seen.

em Some piercings are even more worrying. It could be worse.