Gransnet forums


to feel despair at the gay marriage vote

(462 Posts)
mollie65 Tue 05-Feb-13 20:14:26

so I will sign off permanently
cannot find common ground with those who are so ecstatic about this undermining of a foundation of our society.

MiceElf Wed 06-Feb-13 07:34:39

You are correct Jess M, that is what Christian marriage is. Not what Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or any other traditions' definition of marriage is. And indeed Christians do not have a monopoly of defining what marriage is for any other tradition. Only for themselves.

absent Wed 06-Feb-13 07:49:17

It just seems silly to me to have two systems that do the same thing. A civil partnership ceremony is so close to a civil wedding that they might just as well be amalgamated.

I also find it hard to understand in what way allowing gay marriage diminishes marriage per se. Why would my marriage be any less valuable, important, meaningful, whatever if the couple next door were two men married to each other?

MiceElf I think it was Humpty Dumpty who said that in Through the Looking Glass.

Bags Wed 06-Feb-13 08:33:22

absent, re the diminishing idea, c/f Joanne Harris's comments about cookies. If you give a hetero couple a cookie (marry them) and then you give a gay couple a cookie (same ceremony), you haven't taken the heteros' 'cookie' away from them. Therefore, logically, no diminution. Simple.

absent Wed 06-Feb-13 08:42:41

Yes, I read that when you first posted it Bags and it's a helpful analogy, but there are lots of people who genuinely think that allowing gay marriage diminishes the concept of marriage. I want someone who believes that to explain to me how they think it would do this.

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 08:46:27

Good analogy, Bags.
As usual, Micelf is one of the most rational voices of Christianity and compassion.
It is a shame that mollie feels she cannot engage with people of differing views - it must really restrict her social life. I must admit that I would not become friends with someone who thought Hitler had the right idea, but I can say quite honestly that I number some devout Christians amongst my friends and I respect their right to hold their own views, without it compromising my own unwavering atheism.

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 08:48:48

Absent - we are obviously telepathic - now we will have trouble convincing some of the conspiracy theorists that we are not the same person.grin

MiceElf Wed 06-Feb-13 09:03:03

Whoops Absent. You are right. How could I have confused Alice with Humpty? Senior moment obviously!

BAnanas Wed 06-Feb-13 09:16:58

I sometimes have hypothetical conversations in my head with my dead parents who were stalwart Catholics and who are probably turning in their graves now this has been passed. I think I would have probably said something to them like, attitudes have changed since you were young and this is no big deal for the present generation and they are the ones that will take this new legislation forward, it's their time now. I know my children wouldn't bat an eyelid at a gay marriage. My parents' generation expected same sex relationships to be conducted covertly because possibly they thought it was some sort of affliction, and something that you could give up with a bit of self control, like smoking. Me, I don't believe anyone chooses their sexuality I think it's something you are born with and if my child was gay I would just want them to be happy. I don't have any hangups about this new law I just think it's part and parcel of a changing society. I understand some peoples' reticence about the matter due to their religion or they simply feel much of what they grew up with is being swept away. Ultimately we have to live and let live, as long as our behaviour does not affect anyone else in a negative way and I don't believe a marriage between two people of the same sex should do that. In my head if I couldn't convince my parents of the "times they are a changing" as someone once said, then I would revert to my favourite refrain of perhaps you should just focus a bit more on much of the wrong doing in your church that has been swept under the carpet. That usually shut them up!

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 09:22:04

What a good post, BAnanas.

MiceElf Wed 06-Feb-13 09:38:09

I agree, good post BAnanas. Indeed, we are all products of of our time, education and circumstances. And ideas and understanding change. I'm sure if your parents were alive today, their ideas would probably have developed too, as so many people's ideas have. And if you couldn't convince them after your considered explanation, just remind them of John 15:13. Love one another as I have loved you.

Barrow Wed 06-Feb-13 09:48:02

I am a Christian and I have no problem with gay marriage. If we accept that we are made by God and that being gay is something you were born as, then God made those people gay so why would He not accept them. Love is love whether it is between a man and a woman or two women or two men.

My only caveat would be that no member of the clergy could be forced to conduct a same sex marriage if it went against his/her deeply held belief.

Goose Wed 06-Feb-13 09:59:38

BAnanas Thank you for your last post. For me this vote means that at last my daughter and her partner, my brother and his partner and my nephew and his partner can all finally follow their dreams and become united in the eyes of the law and church - up until today they have felt outcasts, and as they are all kind, loving and giving people, they deserve to commit to the people they love and not spend their lives feeling - different

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 10:03:17

I agree, Barrow, but I wonder if it would be possible to educate some of the people who are so bitterly opposed and show them the historical facts about marriage?
I am listening to The Wright Stuff and they have just debated this subject. I was quite annoyed when somebody suggested that Cameron had made a mistake because there are so many pensioner voters and they would be opposed to gay marriage. I don't know where people get their views of old people, but most of the ones I know are extremely liberal in their views.
One caller rang in to say most people in Britain were opposed to the change, and when Wright pointed out that over half had shown themselves to be in favour, the caller just dismissed the survey because it did not support what he believed.
It was suggested that Cameron was aping Blair's tactic with the hunting ban - show yourself to be very forward looking, but do it far enough ahead of a general election to allow the opposition to die down.
I have to say I admire the courage of the 136 Tory MPs who voted against the bill, even though I think they were wrong.

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 10:05:21

Goose - congratulations to all your family and I hope they have a lovely wedding day. flowers

JessM Wed 06-Feb-13 10:05:31

That is really lovely goose. Hope you have some fantastic family celebrations. flowers

glammanana Wed 06-Feb-13 10:53:32

That is lovely news goose does that mean you can treat yourself to three new hats grin

janthea Wed 06-Feb-13 10:59:37

BAnanas Good post. I agree with your comments. I don't have a problem with gay marriages. I can't see the difference between that and a civil partnerships. The world didn't end when the first couple made a civil partnership and it won't end that the first couple get married.

I don't understand how it diminishes marriage between a man and a woman.

As I have said before, I do think the government has spent too much time on this instead of focussing on really important matters like crime, education and the NHS.

But saying that, I'm sure this is an important step for the gay community and I wish them well.

Bags Wed 06-Feb-13 11:13:33

It's an important step for society, not just for gay people.

Bags Wed 06-Feb-13 11:13:53

Because it shows tolerance.

Bags Wed 06-Feb-13 11:14:59

Tolerance of something that should be tolerated.

I'm not in favour of tolerating things that damage society, like the ideas that cause people to take part in suicide bombings, for instance.

Goose Wed 06-Feb-13 13:43:24

Greatnan JessM glammanana Thank you for your posts to me. This (to me) has been a very important and interesting thread and has moved me to come out of 'lurking' to express my own views, which of course will vary to other peoples views on here and as Bags wisely says 'tolerance of (is?) something that should be tolerated'. My family are overwhelmed with joy at this time - and yes, I shall have to go and buy three new hats - all in rainbow hues smilesunshine

janthea Wed 06-Feb-13 13:49:09

Goose Enjoy your weddings and I hope your family will be very happy. Sounds as though you will have fun. Just the way it should be. grin

j08 Wed 06-Feb-13 13:59:56

I wonder if the anti' s feel that it is another (huge) step towards trying to normalize something that cannot be truly normalised?

My own view of homosexuality is that it is simply something where, somewhere along the line, something has gone wrong. I believe that nature gives us nothing for our enjoyment only. Food, sleep, sex, are all there for a reason. And with sex, it's to further the species. But that doesn't make it sinful. It should not be vilified.

I am for gay marriage. To deny it would be to attach blame where there is none to be attached. But I can see it must be very hard for some people to accept.

Greatnan Wed 06-Feb-13 14:11:18

I am not sure what you mean by 'normalized', jingle. Sexuality is not just a question of A or B - there is a continuum from A to Z. Being attracted to the same sex is normal for very many people - it does not mean that there is something wrong with them.

j08 Wed 06-Feb-13 14:18:13

Well, I've said it all in that post. In the second paragraph.

Normal insofar as to what sex is for.