Am I too 'needy', demanding and difficult?

absent you are right on the money with your comments
Aka I laughed at your post!
Mice Elf I also laughed at your post!

absent - my own mother died aged 66, and my father, 5 years younger, married again two years later. We (my brothers and I) were delighted for him and I am close to my stepmother. I am really pleased my father has someone to share his life with.
Though he and my stepmother lead separate and full lives,family is very important to him - especially as his was torn apart so ruthlessly decades ago. And, as I've grown older, I've realised I feel similarly, though I had terrible problems growing up and establishing my own identity and life because both my parents were rather controlling (for the reasons I described earlier). We make sure we see various family members regularly, but we accept that we are no longer the most important parts of our DD's lives, though we know they love us and we love seeing them.
Penstemmon - it's sad that people find it so hard to move on from former hurts. Sometimes it takes a death in order that someone realises what they could have done to improve relationships - and then, of course, it's too late.

I look back and think how in that time between leaving home and having a baby of my own I 'lost touch' with my parents because I was learning about being an independent adult. I did visit and communicate but I put my needs first. TBH my parents had my 2 brothers still at home so were not abandoned! Once I had children of my own my relationship with my mum blossomed again...sadly for only 6 years as she died at 61.

I tell my SiL who has a tenuous relationship with his mum to think carefully before he says 'never' about seeing her! She is not a very warm person to him(he was a handful as a teen) and she is not interested in his children. She is close to her daughter and her children and to SiL it looks like favouritism. He is now settled and successful but she cannot move on from the 'wrong' he did almost 30 yrs ago!

Wow absent - couldn't agree more with your post.

I think it is very interesting how the dynamics of family relationships change – or in some cases, don't change with time and age. As someone else has pointed out, mum is usually at the heart of a child's world. When that child grows up, his/her partner and then children (not always in that order) take over and mum slips down the list. It's not that she is any less loved or is regarded as having become useless or unwanted, just that her motherly role is less central. Some of the next generation seem to have a problem recognising that this is a two-way street and still want to be regarded as the focal point of mum's life – hence those instances of huge resentment about middle-aged divorce and remarriage, for example. Some of our generation still refer to their children, or even more disconcertingly, to their grandchildren being the focal point of their lives. I don't mean that the love felt for children or grandchildren is anything but valuable and natural but it is as if they are unable to be or don't want to be involved in any aspect of a life that isn't to do with being mum. I don't think that is valuable and I do think it is unhealthy, especially when it manifests itself in controlling behaviour whether obvious or disguised.

I can't understand what you did that was so insensitive. Surely, it was reasonable to comment - it is your dad's history and in many ways his experiences must be closer to you than your daughter. A couple of remarks regarding format and content don't seem that terrible to me, particularly as you thanked them for the hard work they had put in.

I also don't see why parents should feel unable to express an opinion. My own feeling is that adult children should be treated as such - parents should not have to pussyfoot around them.

Your daughter is under some pressure at the moment and possibly over-reacted. I'm sorry that this has been so upsetting for you and hope that things will soon settle down.

Just wanted to add my total agreement to Janeainsworth's post - I would never feel I had 'rights' over my grandchildren, or actually even my children. They are their own people and when our relationship hits rocky patches, as relationships sometimes - often? - do, then I am sad, to say the least. But I am always trying to find ways of strengthening our bond which is, I hope, a loving one.
Both our DDs know that our love always was and always will be unconditional, even if we don't always like what they say or do. We've made that clear many a time over the years, and also emphasised that they must always make their own decisions (unless they specifically want advice!), irrespective of whether they think we will approve or not. And we do our best to honour that.

Easier said than done, however - I often fall short of those ideals: I am trying to see it all as a work in progress, which won't stop evolving till one or more of us shuffles off this mortal whatsit.

This is a very interesting thread,with so many honest and heart felt comments from contributors. I enjoyed and agreed with Janeainsworth's own comments, and her support for Absent and Merlot's posts. The breakdown of the relationship between a mother and her adult child is something I never thought could happen to me, until it did. The sense of failure, and loss can be overwhelming at times, but life must go on and the very best must be made of it.

Or did you mean your post? Getting confused here, better shut up.

Should I copy it over to there, Anno? I don't like to repeat myself (Could look narcissistic)

First shot at this post vanished into the ether,. It could reappear now that I have typed it again.

I think that last post could equally have been in the 'good mum' thread. There are quite a few threads on the subject of our relationships with our adult children, often on the lines of 'where did I go wrong?' Perhaps, we should look at previously existing threads before beginning a new one.

Babies are born with just that description, MiceElf, totally self-centred, with no knowledge that anyone exists outside themselves or has any needs or rights of their own. Parents have total responsibility for that baby, their food, shelter, comfort, safety, happiness, everything, and continue for its childhood.

Trouble is, they are also responsible for any other children, a husband and relatives, a house and its contents, earning money to pay for all that, and indirectly for not endangering or annoying friends and neighbours or even strangers. ALL children have to face frustration and restraint when what they want comes into conflict with other people, or even with otyher people's possessions that they are bent on destroying.

Where does that frustration come from? Parents, particularly the one they are most reliant on - mother. As the child gets older, reining in their own instincts to grab and slash gets internalised, and mother does not have to be a constant conscience, but it takes time. Some people never quite internalise that control, and it always seems to them as though mother is the nagging conscience and the cause of all their problems, and they have to keep rebelling and retaliating, right into their adult lives.

Equally some mothers find it difficult to believe that a child can make a decision for his/herself and be responsible for his/her own life, however old he/she is.

When my ex decamped, I was in the middle of doing a basic counselling course which I believe helped me to find my way more clearly through the morass of the breakdown and to work with my sons to re-create our household without a father in it. Maybe I leant on them more than I should have - they were only teenagers - but they were enormously supportive of me while managing their relationship with their father and his new partner. They grew up a lot in that time. Although there were times when they went off the rails, they got back on, in the knowledge that they had my unconditional love, not to mention occasional financial support. I try not to lean on them now, but know that if I needed to they and their partners would be there for me. Advice? If they want mine, it's there, but the boot is more often on the other foot nowadays.

I've just googled it. The narcissistic description is a person who is self centered manipulative, demanding, cocky, has an inflated sense of their own self importance and is vulnerable to slightest criticism. It's described as a 'disorder'. But I suppose it's easier for a psychologist to describe this unpleasant behaviour as a disorder instead of saying to the person "You are self centred ....".

Well here on GN let me air the idea that you can have 'narcissistic daughters or sons' and 'toxic' ones too. It's not exclusive of the younger generation. So stick that in your disposables nappies Mumsnet

I had never heard of the expressions 'narcissistic mother' or 'toxic parent' until I read them on Mumsnet.

I think Mumsnet has a lot to answer for. They can get some silly ideas off of each other on there.

Another vote "aye" Jane. You have perfectly summarised my own views.

I agree too jane, although I adore my dgc, my own children are much more important to me.
They respect me and I respect them.

Wise words Janeainsworth

Janeainsworth - You've expressed my views perfectly.

I agree with absent and merlot.
I've never, ever, once thought of my relationship with my DCs in terms of power.
Responsibility certainly - responsibility to provide a loving environment in which they could grow and develop, responsibility to educate, responsibility to provide financially for them until such time as they were able to provide for themselves, and responsibility to advise and mentor if they themselves perceived a need.
But power over them? No.
I wouldn't want power over anyone, because that implies inequality.
As for grandchildren, I have no 'rights'. They are my children's children, and I love them dearly, but I have no rights and expect nothing.
If my relationship with any of my children broke down, I would be broken-hearted, but it would be the loss of my own child that I would mourn.

I can honestly say there's no pecking order in my family.

I think that, as social animals our whole life is based around where we are in the pecking order, especially within families.

Power is not always exercised in these relationships - you're lucky *absent". But when it is, then the trouble or stress starts. I know someone who runs a "family business" and it is painful to see how his mother (who knows nothing about running a business having never been involved) pulls the family obligation strings (giving jobs to relatives, that kind of thing).
I guess the bottom line is - and people don't really like to acknowledge it, but I believe it to be true:
The way parents feel about their adult children is completely different to the way those younger adults feel about their parents.