Public outpourings of grief

I have to agree about the joining in because it's seen as the done thing, absent. It doesn't appeal to me either, but I can understand its appeal (if that is the right expression; it seems more like peer group pressure to me) to others, in the same way that I can understand other fashionable and/or cultural pressures on people.

Perhaps I'd better not read the posts about naughty steps. Been out at archery.

Of course that was the gist of what I was saying bags although I would extend the thought to the suggestion that through such actions we, as a society, through the media and so on, are in in danger of mistaking "false" emotions for real ones – in this case genuine sadness for the real gut-wrenching misery of personal grief. There are those who are okay with this but I find the "me too – look, I'm crying" attitude unattractive.

I'm not clear why you've been put on the naughty step.

I thought this was a general discussion about public displays of so-called grief not simply about the incidence of one child's death. As I know nothing about that child or his/her death,I shall say no more. That, after all, is what we have been told to do anyway.

There have been many negative comments on this thread which puzzle me inasmuch as they were a response to the death of toddler Mikeeal. Unless you live in that street then this is something viewed on TV, for less than a minute probably. So live with that or ignore it. If you keep on and on about it then who is actually 'wallowing' and in what?

Bags and I often have heated disagreements spirited discussions but I honestly cannot see that she has said anything that warrants a capital YOU Rosesarered and we are all aware of the truism you trotted out.

Yes, I can see that, but it is still only my opinion that a lot of the posts I read seemed excessively negative and critical. The comment "stop bloody moaning" was not directed at any individuals but at (what I read as) moany posts. I can't even remember who made the negative comments, nor do I wish to remember. I was commenting on what was said, and what appeared to me to be the tone of what was said, not who said it.

Thanks thabags- it is just the 'stop bloody moaning' which seemed a bit stronger than just giving an opinion, can you see that? Anyhow- onwards and forwards, and hope we can agree to disagree at times (even often) without personalising or insulting. Ta.

My last post was in reply to absent's remark which suggested to me that it is not grief that people who leave flowers or teddies or whatever after deaths but some other sentiment, such as sympathy. This has already been said on the thread by people other than me if I remember correctly. My interpretation of absent's post may be wrong but she is the only one who will know that for certain. There is nothing right or wrong about expressing this idea.

My post was not a criticism, just an opinion. It really doesn't matter except to clarify concepts such as grief, sympathy, etc. Which is what I thought the thread is about.

As for not trying to convince anyone of something different from what they'd already thought (or not thought, as the case may be), I thought that's what discussion was for as well as to simply express a firmly held opinion which one doesn't intend to change.

I have expressed my opinions same as everyone else. No-one has to like them or agree with them, or even read them. I have not made personal remarks, just said what I think in a general way. At least, that has been my intention.

I was thinking of that particular case mentioned and the little children trawled along to place teddies for a child some of them probably did not know.
I thought we were discussing changing attitudes to grief in this country

Syria is a whole different and tragic story, I am doing my best to contribute something to help as well as money (if you knit/crochet please check out the LILY website - Love in the Language of Yarn)

Excellent post Rosesarered. It is such a shame we cannot say how we personally feel about any 'topic' here, our opinion, without it being seen as a personal attack on someone who has a different view. The fact I find it distateful, and would upset and disturb me, rather than comfort me, in time of deep grief- does not mean I criticise or deride someone who feels differently, surely. Let's agree that sometimes we disagree, and it does not add up to attack or 'bleating', etc, and that this is fine.

thatbags because YOU feel a certain way, and maybe some others on here too does not mean that you are right.Don't take threads personally is what I am saying or try to get people to think what you think. We all have our own opinions, and in the case of this particular thread there is no wrong or right and it's pointless to keep saying more or less the same thing over and over, trying to get more people to agree with you.I said what I thought pages ago, am amazed this thread is still going, there is nothing left to say UNLESS somebody new comes to it.

So the title of the thread is wrong and that's all.

Thinking about the OP, I have no problem with public outpourings of grief, but a lot of the cellophane wrapped, teddy bear depositing, sobbing outside Buckingham/Kensington Palace wasn't grief. Sadness, perhaps, but grief is a profoundly personal emotion.

You're right Aka and it's heartbreaking.
My two foster sons have seen and experienced things that no child should ever have to deal with, including the death of their mother; but perhaps because of their familiarity with death and their Afghan culture of openly grieving they seem to be relatively unscathed. Children and young people are amazingly resilient.

Pity then the children of Syria then, and other war zones. No chance of them being gently introduced to the idea of death. What protected lives our children lead.

No, not completely, suzie, but gently in a way suitable for their age.

I think it is some comfort to grieving families to feel they are not alone and that others mark the enormity of their loss. In the past organised religion played a greater part in people's lives and people may have come together in prayer in church, lighting candles etc. but even if people are not religious , they still have a need to mark the death of someone who has touched their lives. Children cannot be completely shielded from the facts of life and death unfortunately. Laying flowers or mementoes fulfils a need that we all have to comfort each other and ourselves at a difficult time.

I am certainly not moaning thatbags, merely commenting on our changing attitudes to grief. Other nations have always expressed their feelings in more overt ways than the British - perhaps that is better than our traditional stiff upper lip, perhaps better for our mental health? Let it all out rather than bottle it up. As long as it doesn't upset close family even more . I used to wonder what the young princes felt when their mother died and they were forced (by public opnion and Blair) to go and shake hands with crying people who had never met her. Princes, yes, but poor kids!

And, I still think little children should be shielded from extreme emotional outpourings of grief.

I have to say that I think people applauding a coffin is a mark of respect !
God forbid that I would find myself in this situation , I would not think less of the people applauding .
In fact I think I would take comfort in it . That people have turned out to "salute" a loved one!

Time and habits change, of course. However, I think I would find people applauding as they looked at the coffin of someone I love truly distressing, regardless of their intention.

Thanks to Bags, again, for putting my own feelings so much better than I could have.
GrannyA thanks for your memorable post about your very personal experience x

A charity fund in the name of the diseased person, for a charity known to have been supported by the departed- would imho be of much greater comfort to the family, I personally feel. So no need to swear thanks.

The sight of wilted and rotting flowers and gunged up rotting teddy bears would be absolutely soul destroying to me, and the worst possible illustration of the realities and waste of death. Each to their own, I'd say.

GrannyA Solidarity from family and friends mean so much at times like this, as indeed does the sympathy of other well wishers.

I would far rather see people showing they cared than the ridiculous stiff upper lip which I have always thought to be very cold and unfeeling.

I feel quite ambivalent about some aspects of public displays of grief and am appalled at mentions of 'grief tourism', but I know what a comfort they can be too. When my son in law's coffin passed through Wootton Basset I was there - and so too were many other members of his and my daughter's families. Only a small number of family members are permitted to attend the official repatriation ceremony and so we met up with wider family on the roadside at WB. There was a huge crowd as several coffins had flown home that day. Unasked and unexpectedly, but most welcome, my local branch of the RBL had turned out in force to pay their respects. Family members from all branches of the family were there, so too were dear friends, many having travelled long distances. They came to process their own grief and to show solidarity with us. It meant more than I could ever have imagined before that day.

A donation to charity isn't going to help the dead person either. Yes, I know it might help someone else but the focus is on the person who has died, and their relatives, for these memorials, and why shouldn't it be? Whether one would like it for oneself is completely and utterly irrelevant. You wouldn't know anyhow even if such things were "inflicted" on you after you died.

I think I'm saying stop bloody moaning about something harmless and which may actually be of comfort to the relatives of dead people.

I think I was trying to reflect on changing attitudes rather than making a criticism. Perhaps some oldies feel uncomfortable with the "modern" way, although I must admit I am often in tears especially when it is a child we hear about. But I think donating to that little child's nursery or a donation to the NSPCC would be better than a pile of rainsodden teddy bears - they are not going to help him now are they?