Denied Contact? How to move forward?

Tolstoy eh!? This thread has suddenly gone very high brow

That's an interesting point Anno, are all unhappy families unhappy in their own way or are there recurring themes? Difficult to say. I think there are similarities in some of the experiences posted on here, otherwise such close bonds could not be formed as it would be difficult for people to really empathise.

Smileless, I think your point about expectations is interesting. Financial expectations seem to be really critical to the next generation, all these reports on the news about the 'rent generation' for whom property ownership is beyond their means has got to be causing some stress points, as has the stay-at-home thirty somethings that are apparently on the rise. Many couples have to wait until they are financially secure before they have kids, jobs are very insecure at the moment and maternity leave requirements stipulate a sustained period of employment in the firm before you get them, which means people are having kids later. Once you have them, then it's back to work to pay the bills, which means expensive child care or relying on family (which as you say can be stressful for the grandparent especially with four kids!). We're at a point where in most cases both parents are having to work now just to pay the mortgage, the option to be a stay-at-home mum is a luxury rather than a right. There's no such thing as a 'job for life' anymore and cost of living just keeps rising! I think society is changing and not for the better in many ways. The pressures the next generation are battling just to create and maintain a 'happy family' are immense!

Apparently the baby boomers had the golden years!

Much has been said on this matter and I would agree strongly with newest..do not dwell on it, as dwelling will only cause pain..this is very true and effective.

Some grandparents do not wish to give up and power to them, it is worth the effort and the fight, however if all else fails... Do not dwell..

My final word on the matter is any person that does not allow a grandparent to see their grandchild for no good reason, is evil with a
capital E and one must realise and accept this when dealing with them.

Whenim, I think your point about the comfort of misery is interesting. Do you mean that we adjust our thought patterns so that misery becomes the new norm and in a strange way is more comfortable than change even if it is positive?

Whenim, tiger, If I am honest I think I've been stuck in the misery rut. My OH has said 'why do you keep putting yourself through this' I guess because for me that's how it's always been, so I don't really know any different and tbh change does scare me.

Cathy bee I think you are right my son Describes our daughter as evil it distresses me but there really is no other description.

Very important to try not to dwell on it no good can come of that.

Found the reconciliation thing tiger by googling it interesting have read the book family estrangement and when parents hurt but in some ways is depressing feel like after all this time want to stop reading all the theories and accept absolutely nothing we can do, also that we are important too.

celebgran, that really is the sum total of it, isn't it, though? We are important, and we must just keep living our lives to the full. My DD estranged herself 10 years ago for no apparent reason (though she did allow my DGD's to continue visiting me. My heart was broken and I did everything I could to get her back in my life again, all to no avail. Then 3 years ago things improved and I was allowed back into her life, although sometimes I felt as if I was walking on eggshells. I was so, so happy that I was able to see her, hold her and talk to her again. Just being able to be in the same room as her again was the very best that had happened to me for a very long time. Out of the blue, it happened again. She texted me and said she never, ever wanted to see or hear from me again. I thought I was going mad with the grief of it all, I really did. But I didn't go mad, and I've stopped grieving, really. I did buy the book 'When Parents Hurt', and there was a chapter in it that I've marked and look back on now and again. This actually does help. However, what I have recognised out of all this, is that there's absolutely nothing I can do about any of it. DD has chosen this route, possibly because choosing any other route would cause her to be unhappy. Above anything I want her to be happy, and if that means excluding me, then so be it. In the meantime, life goes on.

Marelli (((hugs)))

Thank you, Lona.

Brave words Marelli

Just some more ((((hugs)))) for you Marelli. A hellish situation that you don't deserve.

Celebgran, I'm so glad you found the article. I hear what you are saying about reading theories but the last point does offer a glimmer of hope for your own well being:

'Forgiveness is worthwhile even if you don't reconcile with a family member. Freeing ourselves of bitterness and resentment is good for us. Start with having compassion for yourself, then widen the beam of your compassion upon your family'

As Marelli says, you are absolutely important! Very much so. I think that gets lost in all the noise and makes us feel really bad and unimportant, which fuels our pain. That inner voice says 'what about me???' Which is why starting with you is really crucial. Your pain jumps off the page. Rather than just living with it, wouldn't it be better to get to a place where you feel more positive? Start inwards work outwards. You know, that depressed feeling you mentioned when you read the books is actually part of the healing process. The grief cycle, which is what you are essentially going through, takes you through many stages that will be painful and very difficult. I've tried to post a picture of the cycle but it won't let me, I think I've figure out how to do a link! Have a look at this chart, where would you put yourself right now?

changequestcoaching.com/2010/07/16/the-change-cycle/

The grief cycle devised by Kubler-Ross ( also developed into the change cycle because it can be applied to any form of life changing event) doesn't always go in sequence, you can go back and forth between stages, stay in one stage too long, skip stages or go through some very quickly. Professional help can help you through a stage if you feel stuck or need more support. I've used this approach to support bereavement, survivors of suicide and even redundancy, which has a huge emotional impact, particularly on men. Sometimes just recognising where you are in the process can make you more compassionate and kinder towards yourself.

I'll be really interested to hear what your thoughts are. I wish you nothing but peace and healing.

Marelli, thank you so much for your post. It was very moving and I think your final words show how selfless you are.

Cathybee, my mother tells me I am evil. It caused me a lot of pain and my self esteem plummets. Every time I challenge what she say she calls me evil. Just remember there is pain on both sides. Please be careful in using these words with others as they do cause damage. If your grandchild gets to hear that you are calling their mother evil what do you think they will think? Thankfully my son is too young to understand that word but he picks up on the tension.

I should have said 'if your grandchild gets to hear that you are calling their mother or father evil'. I don't know you situation so I shouldn't assume it's your daughter.

Like you Celebgran I'm finding 'When Parents Hurt' rather difficult reading as it's really quite upsetting but I take comfort in your words Tiger that that is a part of the healing process.

I haven't got very far with the book, just taking it slowly but would be interested Marelli if you said which particular chapter you're referring too. You are a wonderful example to us all .

I looked at the chart and think I must be mid way between anger and acceptance, which as there is almost certainly no possibility of bargaining, makes me feel as if I'm in suspended animation .

Have any other posters looked at it and if so where would you put your selves?

Tiger I was thinking about the comfort of what has become familiar, something that you can depend upon even it is negative. I wasn't applying it to anyone in particular but following the chain of the discussion and thinking of anno's Tolstoy quote about families who aren't happy.

Smileless, I find Chapter 12 quite useful. Some of it doesn't apply to me, though it may or may not apply to others, of course, but there are parts of this chapter in particular that really do mean something - such as what is written on page 247. There are hints on writing a suitable letter (p248-249).
I've had to take a more detached approach because I found that was all I was thinking about, and all I was wanting to talk about when I met up with my DS and other DD (and I was putting them in an awkward position). I do have good contact with my now grown-up DGD's and am careful not to harp on about their mum. I'm very aware I did do this, and I know now that this just wasn't at all right. Every one of my family is equally important and equally loved -to keep tearing my hair out, and asking them for news of my DD wasn't fair to them, either.

Tiger you sound very clever about all this! I don't mean that unkindly. Are you speaking from experience or just interested? If you don't mind me asking
I have bookmarked the reconciliation article thank you.

If only I could be positive about my situation how do you,mean really ?

Sycamore I would not dream of calling my daughter evil I haven't seen Her for 5 years so grand daughters not likely to hear anything I say. According to her I would be too aggressive for them which hurts a lot as you can imagine.
Evil is my sons description and I have to agree there must be a level of hardness in her not in me or most people. However I love her still and always will miss her so dreadfully despite her treatment of me.

Marelli I remember you saying that If not intruding does your daughter give a reason? To have her back then lose her again so very sad.

Yes please say which chapter helped most.

Tiger it is not so much find all these theories and so called experts depressing as I feel unsure if it helps to keep wallowing In it and reliving it if that makes sense ?
At pool today being half term a little boy was bewildered his nan left him and went out changing room stupid really he called out where is my Nannie that sort thing hurts me so much I never got to hear my little Gran daughter talk.
She was only 9 months when we were cut out.
How can I be positive about that ? Any suggestions welcome,

I agree about not using the emotive terms such as 'evil' out loud. I have seen too many children damaged by parental squabbles and hurt.Whilst it is important to look after adults' own well being, it is vital not to damage children through adult disagreement and name calling.

celebgran, you're not intruding. Just to say that DD decided to accept/believe I had said/done something that I hadn't said or done. Simple as that.

Marelli I too had put mark on
PAge 247 of when parents hurt. My daughter is 32. However it is more complex as from what has happened we feel it is her husband who is calling the shots.

That is a very good guide to a letter, I have written so very many and have come to accept she will Never acknowledge a communication from me which makes me cry even as I type this!

I don't think the pain will ever lessen I wish to god it would.

Oh Marelli my heart goes out to you. So very sad. At least she did. Not stop the grandchildren seeing you. You can take some comfort from that,

I know exactly what you mean I try hard not to talk about our daughter with our so. As it really upsets him and is. Not fair.

Well, I didn't stay away very long did I? Sorry about that.
I am so pleased to read so much constructive posts and to read the posts from Sycamoretree it is good to hear this issue from a different point of view.
To try and understand a little better how we find ourselves in this devastating situation it is vital that we hear both points of view.
Whether you are a grandparent denied contact or if you find it necessary to deny contact we have to listen to each other to try and find a way through.
What is quite interesting is that as far as I can see, but I may well have missed something, we are focussing on how this affects the adults, I think we should also look at the affect this is having on the children.
We are the adults we can make decisions and choices but the children have no control at all.
For them they still love Mum,Dad, Granny,Grandad, Aunty,Uncle and cousins whatever is going on in the adult world.
So I am sure everyone does but to take time and look at the whole issue of family breakdown through the eyes of the children is also vital.
In fact for me it is the most important thing.

Thanks for mentioning the Kubler/R bereavement cycle. I have often felt that estrangement is like a bereavement. A bereavement without the healing that comes with the healing passage of time. I want to add for Aka at this point, that I am so sorry for the loss you spoke of. I acknowledge that loss is very different to the loss of the relationship you thought you had with an adult child, who may live close geographically, but is on the other side of the world emotionally.
The loss of an adult child as described in this thread, and the COOTL threads, is a different kind of loss. There are none of the recognised social structures or rituals, to help you contain and begin the long process of coming to terms with your feelings of loss, denial, anger, bewilderment and so on. As others have said here, whilst your adult child still lives, there is always hope of some kind of reconciliation, or resolution, whatever that may be. Constant ruminating on hurts, and developing fantasies of some magic reconciliation or resolution, are not helpful, or healthy. Celebs earlier question about what happiness is was a good one. I will probably wish I'd reflected on that for longer but I do believe that we will be best served by living our lives well, compassionately and with love for those around us. Spending time with positive people, with whom we share stable, supportive and loving relationships is very important (for me anyway). I love walking, and find it meditative and relaxing. I have some hobbies, none of which I excel at, and I love the garden. After my parents died, I took some cuttings, dug up some snowdrops, and put them in my garden. The snowdrops are out now, smiling at me. I have a garden ornament that came from mum's garden, and planted a beautiful, white hellebore next to it. It flowered at Christmas and still looks glorious. I was lucky to have a loving mum and find some consolation in watching the things from her garden appear in mine.

Celebgran, I have an academic psychology background, I teach and I'm currently doing my PhD. I'm not going to go too much into my profession because clearly there needs to be a degree of anonymity, but I have also worked with traumatised service personnel, which throws up a lot of challenging issues as you can imagine. I also sadly have personal experience of family breakdown and bereavement from a lot of different angles. It has been an unfortunate legacy my family has perpetuated.

How do you become more positive about your situation? Hard work, hard work, hard work. Any form of change is scary but you can do it, it takes commitment, courage and perseverance to get through the tough times. Have you seen a counsellor? Or talked to any professional? Sometimes you just can't get through things on your own, you need a guiding hand. You wouldn't try to fly a plane with no experience so why would you tackle your own emotional well being, which is much more important, without help? It's hard work and often gets worse before it gets better but change can happen. Where do you think you are on the grief/change cycle?

Marelli is a great example of positive growth. Her insights are so useful.