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Richard 111 again

(56 Posts)
JessM Thu 13-Mar-14 12:14:38

AIBU to think that bringing a case to dispute the burial place of the bones thought to be those of Richard 111 is a waste of court time, when people have to wait months for their cases to reach court and innocent people could be held on remand for months?

grumppa Thu 13-Mar-14 19:44:03

He should be interred next to his wife. Can't remember where she is, but it certainly isn't Leicester.

JessM Thu 13-Mar-14 19:58:18

Location of Anne Neville anyone?

trisher Thu 13-Mar-14 20:12:50

York of course. He was Richard of York. He held court in York. The fact that his enemies killed and buried him in Leicester doesn't mean he belongs there. Bones do not have to be returned to where they were dug up. They must be re-interred in a consecrated area. Sheffield university has a consecrated store which holds many remains.

absent Thu 13-Mar-14 20:13:20

Isn't she in Westminster Abbey?

grumppa Thu 13-Mar-14 20:14:16

Wikipaedia says Westminster Abbey.

JessM Thu 13-Mar-14 20:49:42

Neville Alliance anyone? Counter claim for disputed remains?

Galen Thu 13-Mar-14 21:20:51

As I said. Westminster abbey. Makes sense all ways. With his wife and a monarch!

Vesper Thu 13-Mar-14 21:44:31

I am mostly a lurker, but am posting to say"stop telling everyone how lovely the East Midlands are". They'll all want to come here and spoil it!
And I'd have suggested Fotheringhay, but everyone there is keeping very quiet......................

Deedaa Thu 13-Mar-14 21:57:30

The problem with Westminster Abbey is that they say they've run out of room. Also I don't think they know exactly where Anne Neville's grave is.
I have been a Ricardian for the last 50 years and I believe that he should go back to York. Leicester have been talking about just putting a slab in the floor and not even having a proper tomb. When he was found he'd been thrown into a hole that wasn't even a proper grave, naked and with his hands still tied. Leicester wasn't that bothered about him then.
The problem is that all the paperwork was drawn up at a time when no one really believed he would be found. Digging a hole in the ground and finding a named individual after 500 years just doesn't happen.
I expect Leicester will win but I think Richard would have hated the idea.

Galen Thu 13-Mar-14 22:04:07

I'm sure Westminster could drill a vertical shaft for his bones! Has anyone asked them?

kittylester Thu 13-Mar-14 22:23:05

There is a beautifully designed tomb planned for Richard and I understand that the university were convinced before they started the excavation that they would find his body.

It isn't true that Richard has had no supporters in Leicester - there has been a very active fRochard lll Society for as long as I have lived here. The people who have provided the DNA live in Canada.

My Mum knew Gary Lineker's grandmother!

Where are you in the East Midlands*vesper*?

Nelliemoser Thu 13-Mar-14 22:34:05

Vesper A Good point. grin

Anno I wonder if we share any ancestors?

JessM Fri 14-Mar-14 06:58:21

One of my dearest friends comes from the E Midlands. That is my only connection other than going there a few times to conduct interviews. grin

Maybe an oubliette would be appropriate after what happened to the princes?

kittylester Fri 14-Mar-14 07:13:49

Isn't there now some doubt that he was involved in that Jess?

absent Fri 14-Mar-14 07:19:47

They were declared illegitimate, not by Richard who was very close to his brother and his nephews so he had no reason to arrange their murder. Tyrell did very nicely out of Richmond when he became Henry VII – who also dealt with the Nevilles. Now, he was a nasty piece of work!

seasider Fri 14-Mar-14 07:28:12

Leicester look likely to soon have a premiership football team too. It could be their year!

kittylester Fri 14-Mar-14 07:38:53

Best not mention that too loudly round my family - they all support Forest confused

granjura Fri 14-Mar-14 08:45:18

Are you near Fotheringhay Vesper? I love that place, and sitting on the mound above the river... Of course the place where Mary Queen of Scotts was executed.

Now, I wasn't there smile but I am pretty sure Richard III did not murder the brothers in the Tower. The supposition that Henry VII's mother, Margaret Beaufort, was behind the murders seems to make much more sense.

Nelliemoser Fri 14-Mar-14 09:35:40

Trisha The Greyfriars buried him in Leicester in an honoured position in their church as soon as they could. Given the behaviour of the times it was lucky his enemies did not desecrate his remains or stick his head on a spike on the gate of the city as happened to a grand father in York.

KittyL is right. Leicester was always proud of its connections with him. My mum and aunts appeared to have learnt a lot about him at elementary school in the twenties and thirties and did not have Shakespear's concept of him as a villain.

No sound evidence at all that those boys were murdered on Richards orders. He was never officially accused of such a murder by the Henry Vll camp, which would have been a very good propaganda ploy to use in an invasion attempt.
The "princes" were debarred from the throne by "technical" illegitimacy, which was a serious business in those days.

Not to mention that there was a great deal of contemporary speculation that Edward lV was illegitimate as his Father was away on campaign in France at the time he would have been conceived. E4s mother Cecily Neville was strongly suspected to have had a liaison with a big blond soldier in his absence.

rosesarered Fri 14-Mar-14 12:40:21

I must admit that I don't care one way or another where he should be re-buried, but if push comes to shove, as others have said he was Richard of York, therefore it's more fitting for him to be buried in York and not Leicester . What would he have chosen do you think?

Vesper Fri 14-Mar-14 17:02:31

I'm in East Northants - not too far from Fotheringhay, and in the general area of "North by Northamptonshire" (although the only authentic accent was the Scots one!)
As kids our history teaching definitely tended to the Ricardian!

merlotgran Fri 14-Mar-14 17:15:22

My (monopoly) money's on Margaret Beaufort as well.

durhamjen Fri 14-Mar-14 17:48:39

I'm from Yorkshire and lived in York for ten years, so I say York.
There's a very good museum to Richard in the walls of York.
His son is buried in Yorkshire, at Middleham, and they lived in Middleham Castle for a long time. They always went back to Middleham when they needed to relax and get away from court.
The only claim that Leicester has is that is where he was killed. He was killed near there because that is where the two armies met. It could just as easily been Nottingham or Warwick or anywhere in the midlands. Most kings are not buried where they were killed, but somewhere with some connection to them.

grumppa Fri 14-Mar-14 18:06:09

Mind you, he was Duke of Gloucester. There's a very impressive cathedral there....

mollie Fri 14-Mar-14 20:21:33

Ooooh, Grumpa, you've muddied the waters now. York, Leicester or Gloucester?