Christian Family face possible legal action

Bakery is a business - it doesn't have a religion. To talk of a Muslim bakery or a Christian bakery is nonsense.

But you cannot seperate a bakery from the bakers. Or any other business form its owners.

You can try to legally I suppose, but an owner can still choose different options.

If you think of gransnet, different moderators do different things. Gransnet is not seperate from its' employees, no matter how hard it tries to level things out, in terms of moderation.

I agree, ana. And the kid gloves problem is caused by the threat of violence if people outside the religion don't toe the line. It's worse than ridiculous.

I think what some religious people don't get is that their beliefs and resultant choices are not more precious than other people's beliefs and choices and that they are not, therefore, deserving of special treatment. If you like, you could look at the law in this kind of case as being at the common denominator of tolerance. Equality is like that. There will always be things that appear unfair to some people but if they are fair for the vast majority then those others just have to put up with it.

Someone asked earlier up thread who makes the laws. In a democracy we all do. Society has decided that it is better to tolerate other people's relationship choices than to be intolerant of them. The bakers' problem is that they are intolerant.

I don't agree, soon. I think you can separate owners' behaviour from their business. The law can decide what is acceptable behaviour towards others and apply the same rules to all public businesses. It has to to prevent random unfairness and to control intolerance. That is what happened in this story.

The thing is, it isnt intolerance. In this case, it wasnt random unfairness either. It is obeying God. It is not personal to whoever, even though I can see that it appears like that.

The law can indeed do what it does. But many people of many faiths can choose to go against the law.

A lot of people of a lot of faiths are far more in fear of God or whoever, than they are of man and laws.

So be it, but if you go against the law, you will, usually, still be answerable to the law. I honestly think this is a storm in a teacup, or possibly a cup cake. Surely god, whichever one you believe in, couldn't give a toss about what is written in the icing. Also, I reckon a pretty lousy sort of god that keeps his/her followers in fear.

I think that what is written on a cake is pretty low on God's priorities.

Would it be intolerance if a baker who might be regarded by some as a "militant atheist" refused to do a similar order for a Christian because they disapproved of the wording? I think it would. You?

Is it going against their belief system? If it is, then no. If it isnt, then yes. I suspect that the answer is no.

Hmm...

I'm coming to the conclusion that the problem here is that on the one hand there are people who think certain kinds of belief trump everything else and on the other hand there are people who think that how people behave towards each other, regardless of beliefs and 'belief systems', is what is most important in human interactions.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the knowledge of Christianity (well, of stories about Christ, which is not the same thing) that I do have suggests to me that Jesus would fall into the latter category rather than the first.

10.04am post true
10.19 post not. Jesus was about both.

Good luck with converting 'er soon.

It isn't illegal to discriminate against Christians on the basis of their religion so trying to draw an analogy of that kind won't work. I'm not sure that refusing to decorate a cake in a specific way as opposed to making a cake amounts to refusing a service. I'm sure the customers had taken legal advice on it before making the request, though.

I'm surprised by your first sentence, lily. Quite shocked in fact. Are you sure it isn't illegal to discriminate against Christians on the basis of their religion in this country?

I suspect it depends on the interpretation of "on the basis of their religion". I hope so anyway, rather than it being a stark and plain fact.

Lily - what are you talking about? Of course it's illegal to discriminate on the grounds of religion! Where on earth did you get that idea from?

Quite right! I don't know what I was thinking! 'Religion' means every religion including atheism! It covers you if you: belong to an organised religion such as Christianity, Judaism or Islam
have a profound belief which affects your way of life or view of the world. This includes religious and philosophical beliefs, or a lack of belief, such as Atheism
take part in collective worship
belong to a smaller religion or sect, such as Scientology or Rastafarianism
have no religion, for example, if you are an atheist.
The law against discrimination because of religion or belief does not cover purely political beliefs unless they are also philosophical beliefs.

You are protected if someone discriminates against you because they think you are a certain religion, when you are not. For example, it's against the law for someone to discriminate against you for wearing a headscarf because they think you are a Muslim, even if you are not actually Muslim.

It's complicated.

I should think it's illegal for someone to discriminate against you for wearing a headscarf full-stop!

Yes, so would I.

I should hope so, anyway!

Otherwise Hilda Ogden would have been arrested years ago!