Christian Family face possible legal action

But a baker supplying a cake with a political statement on the icing is NOT the baker making a political statement. It's the cake orderer who's making the statement. The baker is making a cake. That is all.

That seems to be the trip up point

Expressing disagreement with views is not the same as refusing service because you disagree.

You don't have to agree with everyone your work brings you in contact with. In nearly all cases, that is unless they are being violent towards you, you do have to tolerate them, and their views, while you are at work, however much you hate doing that.

It's not wrong to tolerate something you hate which does you no actual harm.

The baker's behaviour was intolerant. That is the problem. Intolerance has caused a lot of trouble in Northern Ireland. What a shame that it still does over something so silly as a cake.

But lily, 'simply expressing disagreement with the views of others' is not what is the subject of legislation.
It is refusing to provide a service on the grounds of sexual orientation that is prohibited.
I agree with bags - the directors of the bakery were probably well aware of the legal consequences of refusing to make the cake.
I cannot help suspecting also, that those who commissioned the cake did so in the full knowledge of what the response would be - a perfect storm.

I agree janeainsworth - I feel sure all concerned walked into this one with their eyes wide open and now feel validated in whichever side they took.

If you run a business, you abide by the law, simple really. What we do and say in the privacy of our own homes is (thankfully still) up to us, but when we're in a place of work we conform.

I'm sure many of us will have experienced either working alongside colleagues with views we disagree with, or having to work with customers/patients/service users with views we actively dislike. The same level of service applies to all, we can't discriminate, which is what the baker did. Ok the company is likely to have been set up, but I imagine anyone bright enough to run a successful business, is bright enough to consider the likely implications of the action they took here.

This baker's job is to supply cakes! Exactly that.

I really don't want to think any further as to what this baker's solution would be to live in a world with his blatent disapproval of homosexuality.

janeainsworth I guess, for some really deeply believing Christians, what they feel are the tenets of their religion has to go deeper than anything else. I don't believe they were being unkind or lacking in understanding. They simply feel that they cannot go against their beliefs. The person who ordered the cake, however, had no such reasons for the stand they are showing. They believe that all carnal desires, so long as they harm no one else, should be allowed for. Perhaps, but it's hardly got the same ring to it has it?

That's my take on it, and I'm leaving it there.

Agus I don't for one moment believe that this family are potential gay bashers. Shall we keep it a bit sensible?

theconversation.com/religious-belief-is-no-reason-to-deny-people-services-but-is-there-a-right-to-silence-29006?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1775&utm_content=The+Weekend+Conversation+-+1775+CID_a55c40dc4751ea3cd4604d446b45ec14&utm_source=campaign_monitor_uk&utm_term=Religious%20belief%20is%20no%20reason%20to%20deny%20people%20services%20%20but%20is%20there%20a%20right%20to%20silence

jingl You seem to be implying that thinking of homosexuality as a sin is a tenet of some people's religion - do you think that Jesus would have preached that it was more important to hate homosexuality than to love your neighbour?
Just asking.

The baker is still free to campaign against gay marriage in his free time. He can even make cakes and ice them with slogans against gay marriage if the spirit so takes him. No-one is impinging on his freedom of religion or conscience.

I'm done with this too.

What if it had been a shop assistant employed by the bakery directors who had refused to supply something that the bakery usually supplied to customers because s/he (the shop assistant) didn't agree with the writing on the cake? The bakery directors would be completely within their rights to sack that employee.

That isn't what happened at M&S though thatbags

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10533728/MandS-faces-furious-backlash-from-customers-over-Muslim-policy.html

As far as I'm aware, they can still refuse to handle those products without the risk of losing their jobs.

I don't know what Jesus would have preached. I know that he didn't preach against homosexuality. But that isn't the point. This is a difficult case because it concerns issues on which public and private opinion is still divided, with legislation supporting one particular set of views. Tolerance is virtuous but it is not virtuous to tolerate wrong. Our views on what is wrong vary.

You and I obviously have a different take on this thread jingl

I am simply looking at the bigger picture of the mindset of people like this baker. A very sensible question to consider I would have thought.

I don't think your telling posters how to think and express themselves adds to any discussion. It's tiresome.

As I have previously ja the Christian Church seems undecided upon whether it is a sin or not. This family probably feels it is. That is their prerogative. I know the present teaching of the Church is to love the sinner, not the sin. Please beware that I am not "the Christian Church". I am not discussing this at a personal level.

In fact, I am not discussing it anymore at all. Please don't address any more remarks or questions to me. I am totally bored if the whole thing.

with! Not "if"

Things certainly seem to have changed in the Christian church. In the early days Christians used to set up the establishment, get arrested, charged and then put to death.
Now they sit at home minding their own small businesses, and people come to set THEM up..

Ham-fisted equal rights

Last week I wrote about the bakery run by Christians that is being taken to the Equalities Commission after refusing to bake a gay cake.

Now a cashier in a Tesco store in North-West London has refused to sell a woman ham because it violated his deeply held Muslim beliefs.

No action has been taken over this. No threat of legal action.

No surprise. by Amanda Platell.

Sigh.

janeainsworth - no.

Some people seem to deliberately misunderstand what is being said, no matter how carefully a poster words a post.

Then the discussion turns into nit picking.

I had already answered that had n't I. There you are. Two for the price of one.

And some people are so intent on getting back at other posters jingl they harbour their grudges for a week at a time, don't they.

I don't understand that at all! What grudges? What have I got to get back at anyone for? I just saw your post and replied, having forgotten I had already done so.

I thought this thread was long gone anyway.

I really don't know what you mean j a

OK Jingl I will spell it out for you.
You addressed me personally, and then you wrote:
"Some people seem to deliberately misunderstand what is being said, no matter how carefully a poster words a post.

Then the discussion turns into nit picking"

Surprising as it may seem, I don't like being accused of deliberately misunderstanding posts, or of nit-picking, especially when more than a week has elapsed since I last posted on the thread.

Or were you criticising some other, unnamed poster?

As I said, I did n't realise that was a week old post which I had already replied to. The rest of my post stands.

Blame * ninny* for reincarnati ng the thread. When it had been gone for a week.