The Scottish referendum debate...

Frannygranny
I object to the why 'we' want to be independent. Quite a lot of us don't so please don't speak for the rest of us

Thank you papaoscar

I totally agree with you Marmight

Come to one of the Scottish meetups if you really think that the Scots are "Ridiculing and insulting their greatest friend for 300 years" Papaoscar. You might be surprised.

"The Scots" are not a line-up of bandy redhaired nyaffs in tartan bunnets with a caber in one hand and a pint of whisky in the other, cursing the English and blaming them for everything from the price of herring to global warming. They vary from wiry dark descendents of the Picts to tall large-boned Vikings, and their political opinions vary just as widely, if not more.

What is clear to Scots, whichever way they plan to vote next month, is that it is a long way from Westminster to Thurso, and not a lot of those in Westminster have ventured on the whole journey - well, the only really GOOD road in is the A74, and surprise surprise! there is still a long drive to any Scottish city other than Glasgow. Politicians risking life and limb to visit genrally concentrate on Glasgow or Edinburgh.

If you can imagine England as the 51st state of great US of A, in an alliance which, when it was created, was billed as an equal partnership, but which is in reality a bit like a horse and chicken pie (one horse to one chicken) then you can imagine the relationship which many see as that between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

I personally think that the Union is stronger than either country on its own, and I shall (probably) vote that way, but I don't believe that those who vote Yes do so from hatred or ridicule or insult to the English. Some, perhaps yes, there are people in every party or country who choose a course because of their paranoia, but that is not a national characteristic.

Yes I am sure you are correct elegran but you must admit that the Scots do come over as a bit "chippy" at times! Love them all though!!!!

So do Cockneys, Whitewave, The saying when I was young was "This is me, and me barra's outside" - that is, "I'm a bit of rough from the East End and you can just take me as I am."

Those with chips on shoulders (of any nationality or political persuasion) make a lot of noise. They do on Gransnet as well, and I am not confining that to this thread. Those who are just getting on with the business of living do not.

I would have to agree with Elegran's post. I have known a couple of Scots Nationalist and they are every bit as bad as English Nationalists but the majority of Scots I have known have been very friendly (quite a few living here) and not a hint of anti-English.

The Scottish seem to echo the feelings of friends I have in NE: they feel forgotten, left out and overlooked - a bit like the poor relation that nobody is really that fond of but they get thrown a few scraps now and again 'to keep them quiet'. I do think there will be a backlash from the English though if they feel that UK taxes are ending up in Scotland for whatever reason (if forums are anything to go by).

There are now rumblings here that people are considering refusing to accept English notes as they feel it is helping the UK Exchequer (I don't understand that bit though). I do think the UK really needs to start listening to others. There are many Manx who are also muttering about breaking links with the UK (not that it would have any real impact on the UK imo). It all feels like it's falling apart doesn't it

Marmight the we I refered to was my family.

Yes, Holly, anywhere north of Watford on the map is peripheral to the Great Wen of London.

Marmight I would not dream of including all Scots within my statement, thankfully we live in a democracy.

Btw Granny23 thank you very much for your extremely reasoned and informative posts. I have learned a huge amount and it has given me the insight to chose which way to vote.

So perhaps one solution for the UK, Elegran, might be a German-style federation which seems to work very well for the Germans. This would give each region or country far more autonomy yet enable all to benefit from a united approach to areas of common interest. Another thing that really needs to be done is to draw up a proper written constitution at last. These should be our priorities not wallowing in misty-eyed Hollywood-inspired sentiment for times that never were, whist wrapped up in dubious Victorian-invented tartan tripe.

I would add that I, as an Englishman, have hardly ever been represented in Parliament by any party I voted for, yet I have often found myself being governed by a variety of Scots, Irish and Welsh, some good but others terrible. They told me it was called democracy and I am prepared to accept that for the common good.

Granny23, the SNP are asking the Scottish people to take a huge step into the unknown on very flimsy evidence and dodgy assumptions. As a result the UK, our Union, will almost certainly be changed or damaged, perhaps beyond repair. Do not expect to be thanked for so doing.

As regards the nuclear deterrent, I respect your views. However, a lifetime ago I am proud to state that I worked on RAF nuclear bombers and weapons and like to think that the umbrella of protection they provided and continue to provide by submarine (awful as their use would be) have sheltered us all for decades, including Scotland.

Oh dear Grumpa, I am in the dog bob again. [ grin]

Granny 23.

I don't think anything I say would put the willies up anyone enough to make them vote for independence.

There is room for more than one view or opinion I respect your posts but I don't think you really expect others to not have their own thoughts and opinions.

https://fullfact.org/scotland/how_would_pensions_be_affected_by_yes_vote_scottish_independence-34183

For you, newist.

I have been trying to watch the debate, but my grandson kept interupting, so I thought I would leave it until I was on my own.
One thing I did notice right from the start was that Darling would not look at Salmond. Looked like he was spoiling for a fight from the off.

Which one? I thought Salmond was doing a lot of posturing.

Couldn't bear to watch it - all reports describe it as combative and, reading between the lines, macho. Seeing as both sides are keen to woo female voters that is bound to be a hit. Sounded pretty weird that AS was having a go at AD about Tory policy.
I was watching the athletes in the European Championships and thinking it will be interesting how the whole passport thing would pan out if the Yes camp win. Though I seem to recall that in N Ireland it is possible to hold dual nationality - UK and Irish, if they so wish. But another hefty cost for a new Scottish government, setting up a whole new system.
I can't get away from the feeling that Salmond's case is terribly optimistic - based on the assumption that he will get everything he wants in the lengthy and detailed negotiations that would inevitably follow a Yes vote. Why would anyone assume he is correct?

Thanks durhamjen

Rosequartz you asked Why oh why? It always seems wonderful and something to be proud of when Scots, Irish, Welsh proclaim their nationalistic differences but when the English do the same it is something bad and to be ashamed of.

The reason is that English nationalism in recent decades has been sullied by the far right - the BNP and now the EDL. Hardeep Singh Kohli remarked on Radio 4 the other day that the Saltire has never been associated with racism, in the way that the flag of St George has.

That's why most English people don't associate themselves with English nationalism.

£Excellent answer Janea. Perhaps also because the English have always been the oppressor and/or Imperial coloniser in history.

I agree granjura I'm afraid English nationalism is a minefield. Best if the English just keep their heads down for a few more centuries. It's never going to play well with the Celtic fringe, or any of the colonies - India, Australia, New Zealand, North America - they all remember the arrogance and avarice of the English ruling classes. Sorry guys. We know it wasn't you what done it. Just suck it up as they say down under. No amount of flag waving is going to help. Humble is the only way to play it
Round here the Normans have yet to be forgiven. Yes I know they thought they were French

Hang on Granjura!!

We weren't the only ones!! The French were there before us in the colonisation of North America and South-east Asia, not to mention the Belgians and the Germans in Africa. And what about the Spanish Conqistadores?

And don't forget the Romans.

Did the link reassure you, or answer your questions, newist?