The Scottish referendum debate...

Jess M

Are you honestly stating that there were no Irish' Scottish or Welsh , Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, French Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Just the rotten English.

I had to laugh at an interview Russia Today aired a while ago. They had a past Argentinian Ambassador on and she clearly said that Wales sends documents to Patagonia because the Welsh community speak such fluent Welsh. I would love to know if that's true but nothing surprises me these days.

It is true about the Welsh in Patagonia.
www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/The-History-of-Patagonia/

Elegran

Thanks.

I knew about the Welsh connection but did I miss something confirming the Welsh government sends documents for translating.

The Ambassador was quite adament she and Argentina have a very good rapport with Carwyn Jones the First Minister.

LOL the Welsh did not exactly conquer Patagonia and then take all the best bits. Few little groups of settlers not the might of the British navy and army

Sorry Jane but it is not the French that the Yanks think they freed themselves from. I was talking about the British Empire, and there was quite a lot of it. Cant speak of the Indonesians etc. Yes there were other nationalities involved in the colonies but I'm afraid the English get all the blame where the ex empire and the Celtic fringe are concerned. You can plead all you like. Sackcloth and ashes for about 500 years is the only way forward.

Blimey.

To think I was told earlier 'my post' was driving the Scots toward a yes vote.

I'm very ignorant of more recent British history Jess and I may be mistaken, but wasn't it a British Empire - not English - and didn't we have just the odd one or two Scottish and Welsh leaders?

(Sorry - misread - you did say British Empire, just implied it was purely English)

Jess you say

".....It's never going to play well with the Celtic fringe ...."

Have you forgotten the rather active role Scots played in the Caribbean slave trade?

Black History

"It" being English nationalism/patriotism riverwalk. Some of you are obviously not appreciating my humorous way of discussing the sad fact that :
Whatever the involvement of other nations in imperialism, English nationalism is never going to be popular with other nations because they have always been top dog. I know its not fair folks, but nothing you can say to change this sad fact .

Jess I'm afraid English nationalism is a minefield. Best if the English just keep their heads down for a few more centuries. It's never going to play well with the Celtic fringe, or any of the colonies - India, Australia, New Zealand, North America
Assuming the above is tongue-in-cheek!

Wonder why it is called New South Wales ; the flagship department store in Sydney is called 'David Jones!

In fact it was the British not the English alone.

English nationalism is never going to be popular with other nations because they have always been top dog
Why is that I wonder?

Not feeling very top dog in Wales any more, in fact some Welsh become very belligerent if you say you are English, or make kind but patronising remarks as if to say 'well, you can't help where you were born'.

I think the English should start to reclaim a pride in their nation. A national dress, national festivals and a new national anthem for England alone.

POGS I read a very interesting book recently about the Welsh in Patagonia, written by a German lady who had lived in Wales and was very much taken with all things Welsh and learnt the language. She wrote about her visits to Patagonia. Can't remember her name.

Jess I am hoping you live in North Wales and it would be too far for you to come down here to the South and berate me. However, should you decide to come I will be out make you very welcome.

Einstein was right.

Jess sorry I cannot let this one go

Roseq and I weren't talking about the appeal of English nationalism to other nations. We were talking about why so few English people espouse it.
I suggested it was because of the way the BNP and other groups have managed to claim national 'pride' as their own.

Coming back to the OP, one thing that really does worry me if Scotland becomes independent is that UKIP and the BNP could have far greater influence than they do already.

Far greater influence where, Jane? England or Scotland?
The BNP lost all influence in the last election, thank heavens.
UKIP doesn't have a single MP, does it?

dj UKIP doesn't have a single MP, does it? - not yet!

janea that is exactly what I mean; the English are scared to espouse nationalism for fear of being thought of as 'Little Englanders', 'racist' and bigoted. We need to regain a sense of national pride without the fear of such labels.
The Scots, the Welsh and the Irish seem to have no such fears. In fact, it always amazes me how many English people ask if we are going to be celebrating 'Paddy's Day' as they are! No, I don't, but I respect their right to celebrate everything Irish. I live in Wales so am happy to help the DGDs prepare for their Eistedfodds and to wear the national costume on St David's Day.
I don't hear very much about St George's Day being celebrated.

Whatever happens in this referendum it is going to have huge repercussions for a very long time to come for all the countries of the UK.

Maybe the English do not want or need to espouse nationalism.
Maybe we are happy being a multicultural society.

Not yet, jen. But if Scotland is independent, there will be far fewer Labour MP's in the UK Parliament.
I'm just speculating of course, but with a Conservative majority, those with a tendency to vote on the right anyway may well feel that UKIP has a chance and it is worth voting for them. They certainly did well in the north-east in the last European elections.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the BNP 'losing all influence'.

And maybe a lot of people born in England who might call themselves English (like me, for instance), never actually think of themselves as English, but as British because of ancestral connections to other parts of the British Isles and, through those isles, to parts of continental Europe.

Even if Scotland were to leave the UK, it will still be British because it's part of the British Isles.

Maybe a lot of 'English' people are just as proud of all their Scottish, Welsh and Irish connections as they are of their English ones.

And so don't feel a need to be pettily nationalistic.

I have just received my Postal ballot papers. Being a Geordie and now privileged to be living in Scotland its not a hard decision

janea, the BNP now only has two councillors, although its leader is standing in a Spennymoor byelection tomorrow. He's a former teacher who has been banned for life from teaching. Nick Griffin has been declared bankrupt, so I do not think he can stand next year.

That's what I mean about the BNP losing its influence. They can stir up trouble but they cannot have any influence without representation.

Jen of course they can have influence without representation.
They can flood social media like Facebook and Twitter with their hateful ravings. They may not influence you like that, but they can influence others, particularly young people.
Have a look at this The English Defence League. They are all over Facebook and Twitter with thousands of 'Likes'.

Bags Absolutely.

We need to regain a sense of national pride without the fear of such labels.

Maybe too many English people feel there is nothing to be proud of any more? Nothing left to identify with (no national identity left)?

So, to cut to the chase, Gransnetters, the main financial plank of an independent Scotland is based upon a currency union with the UK which the UK government has stated will not happen. So the SNP have been forced to offer the alternative of a Scottish pound informally linked to, but not supported by, the pound Sterling, which would result in all sorts of problems for the newly independent country. Now if I were Scottish I would not like the sound of that at all, whether or not I were pro- or anti- independence.