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The Scottish referendum debate...

(325 Posts)
papaoscar Tue 05-Aug-14 21:52:55

Eventually managed to watch most of it on the satellite after a lot of fiddling about. Cannot understand why it was not made available on all UK TV. Not a brilliant display of debating though - to many interruptions - but I thought the key point was Salmond's total failure to detail his plans and alternatives for the Scottish currency. A massive weakness in his campaign. Anybody else got any reactions, or are you all still sweeping up at Pete's bar?

FarNorth Wed 06-Aug-14 20:21:47

Thank you, Granny23. Your post was far more informative to me than the Salmond / Darling debate.
If Alex Salmond had just been having a private squabble with Alastair Darling, he would have appeared clueless. As he was actually part of a "debate" intended to be of interest to potential voters on Scotland's independence, he appeared clueless and dangerous.
How can Scotland be expected to entrust its future to someone who won't / can't even answer a straight question?

newist Wed 06-Aug-14 20:30:50

Thanks for replying to my post, just one point, The oil companies have certainly been checking out off the west coast, 25kl from ST Kilda, 125kl from where I live, the cost to try extract any oil will need an investment of
$15200 billion dollars, with no guarantees of success. its all too much of a gamble to me

Granny23 Wed 06-Aug-14 23:11:07

See BP's press release here:

Granny23 Wed 06-Aug-14 23:31:15

Perhaps an even better link is this one:

POGS Thu 07-Aug-14 00:21:05


POGS Thu 07-Aug-14 00:32:12

Well I watched it tonight on BBC Parliament channel and I don't think we were told anything new, perhaps that's because there is nothing more to be said, it's now well and truly over to the voter.

I have to say I think Salmond was a tad silly keeping the floor so long trying to make Darling look stupid talking about driving on the right, panda's and outer space. I don't think it did him any favours and I thought it was a bit desperate to be honest.

It is simply over to the floating voter to make or break the Union and they are still left with a choice of head over heart or visa versa after that debate as there was the inevitable bit of ducking the question taking place. I thought it was going to be a little more robust than it was.

papaoscar Thu 07-Aug-14 12:39:01

Very interesting reading about Clair, Granny23, but with all due respect, aren't all those off-shore fields going to be very vulnerable if your navy consists of three rowing boats and a set of bagpipes?

Eloethan Thu 07-Aug-14 14:39:49

That is just the sort of patronising remark that will spur some Scottish people on to voting "yes" when they may have voted "no". No doubt you will say I have no sense of humour but humour can be used to scorn and belittle.

GB has a huge military force and is the 7th wealthiest country in the world. Yet it has now seen the biggest fall in average income since 1921 (as reported in The Telegraph), rising poverty and huge cuts to essential public services. Perhaps Scottish people would like to be part of a country that values its people and treats them with respect. I'm not naïve enough to think independence would necessarily deliver that, but I can understand why the Scots are disenchanted with the way things are at the moment.

Granny23 Thu 07-Aug-14 15:50:50

Papa as I have explained at length before the armed forces, ships, planes and equipment belong to the UK. If/when there is a vote for Independence there will be negotiation between the Scottish Government and the UK government as to how they will be divvied up - Scotland getting a 9-10% SHARE. The Scottish Government's White Paper details plans for an HQ at Faslane which will also become Scotland's main Naval base once the submarines and Trident have gone. Scotland's navy would not be needing a prestige aircraft carrier (with no planes) but would comprise smaller, speedy vessels to protect coastal waters - thinking of fisheries more than the oil fields, which do not seem so be a target for anyone except Greenpeace. smile It is expected that Scotland will remain in NATO as a non-nuclear member so, as now, personnel will often train and be deployed alongside forces from Rump UK, USA and all other NATO members.

thatbags Thu 07-Aug-14 17:35:57

Tick tock tick tock

Granny23 Thu 07-Aug-14 19:37:56

Who is this Ianssmart?? and why should we give any more credence to his personal opinions than that of our fellow Gransnetters? confused

janeainsworth Thu 07-Aug-14 19:46:38

He's President of the Law Society of Scotland, Granny23

Granny23 Thu 07-Aug-14 20:19:31

Oh! THAT Ian Smart, the one who was branded a racist for remarks about 'Poles and Pakis'.

Ian Smart
I'm a long-standing member of the Labour Party with a particular interest in and commitment to Scottish Home Rule. I was a founder member of Scottish Labour Action and have sought repeatedly to secure election to the Scottish Parliament. I've now given up in the huff. I'm a lawyer to trade and in 2009-10 was President of the Law Society of Scotland.

papaoscar Thu 07-Aug-14 20:31:22

Granny23 and Eleothan, I was thinking more in terms of the present situation which thanks to Dave's economies have stretched the UK's defences paper-thin already leaving its armed forces cut to the bone. So 10% of not very much will be even less. And Eleothan, perhaps you and Mr Salmond should recognise that the financial crisis of 2007 was a worldwide phenominum and not just caused by the UK or England. We really must all try hard not to be prejudiced and patronising.

Now, Scotland has enjoyed relative independence in many areas over recent years so the appalling social conditions that I gather pertain in certain parts of Scotland are surely attributable, in significant part at least, to the neglect of Scottish authorities. This would make me question, were I lucky enough to have a vote in the referendum, exactly how the SNP are going to pay for all their plans. Whether or not you have a sense of humour I do not know, Eleothan, but I suggest that you may well be needing one before much longer if all does not go smoothly with this business.

As regards the alleged lack of representation for Scotland, I have to say that the UK's first-past-the-post voting system has hardly ever resulted in me being represented by the party I voted for. In consequence I have often been governed by layers of Scottish politicians I did not choose (no disrespect to them). I accept that as the price of democracy.

newist Thu 07-Aug-14 20:55:59

" Scotland’s ‘share’ of current assets would give her five Chinook helicopters, 10 Typhoon jets, two Hercules C-130 transports, 1.6 destroyers or Frigates, half an Astute submarine, one sixth of an aircraft carrier and just under one Red Arrow! These capabilities only make sense within an integrated UK.

And the Scottish people in the UK Armed Forces today? They joined a fully professional set of Armed Forces committed to the defense of the entire UK. Do they really want now to be part of a local home defense force, outside NATO and the EU, along the lines of Denmark and Norway?

I doubt it"
This is just a snippet from the Sunday Post

thatbags Thu 07-Aug-14 21:05:44

Gransnetters were not being asked to give any more credence to Ian Smart's opinions than to anyone else's – just the same amount – so there's no need to attack the man instead of the issues, G23.

thatbags Thu 07-Aug-14 21:07:31

The article appealed to me because the reference to tick tock tick tock more or less sums up how I feel about the bloody referendum. I'll be heartily glad when the vote is cast.

Crow Thu 07-Aug-14 22:29:42

Me too thatbags

thatbags Thu 07-Aug-14 22:39:34

Here's an open letter to sign if you want Scotland to stay in the UK. It's not a vote but those of us who don't want to leave the UK would appreciate as much support as possible.

thatbags Thu 07-Aug-14 22:41:05

It's funny, crow, but like some of those mentioned in the article by Ian Smart, I've got braver about voicing my opinion about the referendum as time has gone on. Feels good smile

janeainsworth Thu 07-Aug-14 22:49:09

Signed and shared on Facebook.

newist Thu 07-Aug-14 23:04:04

thatbags thanks for that link to the open letter, the more that sign the better

Granny23 Thu 07-Aug-14 23:16:49

Reading Newists figures re Scotland's share of MOD equipment prompted me to google the current figures for the whole UK , which leads me to the same conclusion as Papaoscar that UK defence forces ARE stretched paper thin. To my mind this is because too much of the defence budget is diverted towards Trident and its proposed replacement. I was not aware that each single missile currently costs £17million to purchase and millions more to maintain, nor that a significant proportion of naval surface ships spend all their time patrolling the area around Coulport and Faslane to 'defend' them.

BTW Newist both Denmark and Norway are (non-nuclear) members of NATO. The Sunday Post correspondent should check his/her 'facts'.

Galen Thu 07-Aug-14 23:32:42

Done and shared

Marelli Fri 08-Aug-14 09:44:31

I live in Scotland and am still undecided. Wasn't at all impressed by the debate the other night either and don't feel any further forward (as I hoped I would). I was hoping that reference would be made to Faslane workers, direct and non-direct (those who don't work on the base, but depend on it for their own livelihood). More than 6,500 (plus) workers' jobs are at risk if Trident goes.
Granny23, do you know of any definite plan to re-employ these people?