The Scottish referendum debate...

Hi *Marelli, Obviously nothing will happen overnight, indeed there will be extra work for a period, planning and executing the removal of the nuclear facilities from Coulport. If the facility is to re-locate to somewhere else in RUK then I expect that all the highly specialised workers will relocate there. These workers were recruited from all over and few are 'locals'.

Once trident is gone, the plan is to turn the remaining infrastructure into Scotland's main naval base and also use the existing offices as Headquarters for Scotland's MOD. All this activity will provide plenty of work for the local area and ensure an ongoing demand for civilian workers. With the sinister nuclear subs and the ever present threat of an 'accident' gone from this beautiful part of Scotland Tourism will surely thrive.

One of the benefits of removing trident from the upper Clyde area is that there will no longer be restrictions on fishing and oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde. Geological surveys have shown potential extensive oil fields in the area but no licences have been issued because you could not have test drilling going on when nuclear subs, carrying live missiles are secretly going up and down to Faslane. When this oil field can be developed, 1000's of jobs would be created and the Ayrshire coast would be as prosperous as Aberdeen and Shetland.

Thank you for that, Granny23. DH has just asked me to ask if you have any info on the First Minister's 'open-door' policy for immigration? With foodbanks numbers appearing to be rising at the moment, how would the costs for further immigration be met?

I sincerely hope there will be no accidental oil spillage if this comes to pass, on the beautiful beaches of Harris Benbecula Barra, like happened in the Gulf of Mexico, millions of sea birds killed, Drilling 24kl off St Kilda, A natural Heritage site, Oil wells just off the coast of Skye I do hope not

I do enjoy a nice fresh Scotch pie and a dram, but I prefer my pies not to be too high in the sky. I regret, therefore, that study of the post-independence proposals for Gareloch, Faslane and Coulport reads like a work of fiction of which Walter Scott would be justly proud. What is certain is that Trident relocation south of the border will leave a massive, massive hole in Scottish finances already very uncertainly based, together with the loss of huge employment and manufacturing capacities, and the transfer out of R & D facilities. This will all be very hard and expensive to replace. Furthermore, in the unfortunate event of a maritime crisis I think that the minuscule Scottish navy, bottled up at Faslane, would be hard put to respond in respect of all those oil and gas fields on which Mr. Salmond is so much depending. The trouble is that like the curate's egg many of the SNP's post-independence proposals are a bit dubious. I think I'll stick to a good old fashioned Scotch egg in future!

Around Scotland there is 720 islands, a 6160 mile coast, in comparison to a 60mile land border with England. I have mentioned before that the North Atlantic is one of the most important areas with regards to protecting the whole of the UK, Submarines of many nations use this route quite a few of these are nuclear, not a nice thought, but that is what happens.
Sadly the world does not seem very stable at the moment, what will protect us if there is a big fall out with other countries, I do not think fast inshore boats would be much help, but this is just my opinion

I enjoyed reading your post, papaoscar.

I really do hope that the UK sticks together, thatbags, but am quite prepared to accept the choice of the Scottish people, providing that that choice is not obscured by smoke, mirrors and dodgy statistics.

Let's hope that the people who have a vote in this referendum go out and use it on the day.

Papa I cannot understand why the removal of trident to somewhere in the South will have anything other than a net gain to Scotland's budget given that all 4 Vanguard subs were designed and built at Barrow in Furness, the missiles are merely 'leased' (at enormous expense) from the USA and return there for maintenance and upgrading and the warheads, mainly developed and produced in the USA are assembled at Aldermaston and Burghfield. The overall cost of this to the taxpayers resident in Scotland is currently £163 million p.a., rising to £250 mn p.a. if the proposed replacement of trident goes ahead.

For an analysis of issues around iScotland's defence force this article
www.businessforscotland.co.uk/defence-in-an-independent-scotland-spend-less-to-get-more/

explains things much better than I could.

Newist It may surprise you to know (it certainly came as a shock to me ) that there is not a single Royal Navy surface ship based in a Scottish port. In the event of an accident/piracy/invasion, we would have to wait for a ship to be sent from Portsmouth or Plymouth. I would have expected there to be at least a couple of armed, speedy vessels based at - say - Rosyth to keep an eye on our i.e. the UK's valuable assets, both hydrocarbon and fish, in the North Sea. It seems that the MOD and UK government do not think there is any threat to counter or perhaps, as Papaoscar says they just do not have enough ships.

So you don't think the submarines based there under Commodore Beckett could cope, Granny23?

RN ships may not be based at Scottish ports but they are very often present, which is more important.

But it is not the job of RN ships to be sitting idly in ports anyway. They come into ports various for supplies and sometimes to meet up with other NATO vessels for training exercises.

NATO military exercises are almost continuous in the North Atlantic, I know this because we get told by our internet service provider that our service may be affected, They have the right to close us down at will, which does happen.

Thanks for the link Bags. Have signed and shared.

And thanks Papa - you express my views much better than I could!

This is getting silly isn't it? I have spent time that I cannot afford tonight Googling for official statistics to refute or confirm statements made on this thread, which in reality are not going to sway referendum voters one way or the other and which folks can easily google for themselves.

People will make there mind up based on issues which are important to them - for me these include social justice and the chance of a fresh slate with regards to taxation and spending priorities - a chance to narrow the gap (or should that be chasm) between rich and poor, to rid ourselves of the obscenity of foodbanks in one of the world's richest countries. Foodbanks, BTW, which in the main serve people on zero hours contracts who find themselves just coping one week and then without any income at all for the next fortnight and those whose benefits have been lost in the system or been suddenly stopped but MIGHT be restored after an appeal in a few months.

My other main reason for supporting Independence is to see WMD removed from our soil before an attack or accident occurs within 25 miles of our biggest city. My hope would be that no other UK city would accept this risk and the subs and their lethal cargo would sail back to the USA where they belong. I want the billions spent on trident ect. to be devoted to education and health services freely available to all. I do not care whether my pension comes in £Sterling, £Scots or Euros. I am assured that it will continue to be paid. I am likewise not concerned as to whether I will be 2or3% better or worse off - perhaps because, not having much money, it will make little difference either way.

I am firmly convinced, having read extensively sources such as the Financial Times and the websites of the oil companies that we are being deliberately lied to by our elected government (and their allies in the MSM) about declining stocks and falling prices of hydrocarbons, just as the McRone report was suppressed by successive governments for 30? or 40? years. The reality is that there is plenty still to come from the North Sea, even more from the yet to be developed fields to the West and many advances in renewables which will enable us to reduce our dependency on hydrocarbons anyway.

The EU, knowing which side its bread is buttered on, will not throw out a willing partner who happens to have the biggest stocks of fish and oil in the EU and NATO will be pragmatic because of the strategic location of Scotland in the North Atlantic.

I am not expecting a land flowing with milk and honey - I do not expect jam on day one but I do expect jam tomorrow for my DDs and DGC. I certainly do not want them to grow up in a corrupt, undemocratic (House of Lords??) society, where the greedy rich create a massive monetary crisis and then reward themselves with bonuses while the sick, poor and hardworking families are penalised by wage and benefits freezes, austerity and cuts to essential services and the opposition is in almost total agreement with the government. I also hope that a Yes vote, in demonstrating that a sizeable chunk of once 'Great' Britain is no longer willing to accept this unbalanced society, will lead to changes in the rest of the UK.

I like the idea that for 14 hours next month the people - not the politicians, nor big business, nor pressure groups, the 'state' nor political parties - have the future of their nation in their hands. I hope the chose wisely and are not swayed by manufactured scare stories, irrelevant detail, transient celebrities and whether they like/trust the current political leaders, who will all be replaced and out of power in a few years.

That's my thoughts/feelings on the referendum. It would be interesting to hear which big issues drive other GNs to vote Yes or No.

I really do not see this as being silly, My future depends on the out come of this vote

I cannot vote as I do not reside in Scotland; however as the vote will affect the rest of the UK as well I hope the people of Scotland vote wisely. It does seem strange that we will have no say in something which could affect us all, not just Scotland.

And if it goes the way you wish it to Granny23 I hope it turns out as well as you predict.

Great post Granny23.

I sense, Granny23, from your recent post that you feel a deep sense of frustration with the existing political and social systems in the whole of the UK and that you are pinning your hopes for a better future on the fragile and uncertain prospects of an independent Scotland. I do hope that your aspirations are not dashed on the awful black rocks of reality. Many folk share your deep sense of dissatisfaction with the established order of things and seek to change them by democratic means. Fragmenting those efforts will not help in a world of enormously powerful international and multi-national interest groups. On a different note, the referendum debate has resulted in me plunging myself in an ocean of facts, alleged facts and statistics as a result of which I feel I understand less now about any of it than when I started. The words of my dear old Scots granny come back to me - 'Dinna fash yer sell, laddie!' We're all in the same boat together, after all, like it or not!

Ah! Papa but what if the ship is sinking, in spite of the crew beavering away below, while the 1st class passengers continue to party above. Would you not think it was time to construct a life raft and get your nearest and dearest off the big ship??

If it all works out splendidly as Granny23 hopes, will we all be hot-footing it over the border from England and Wales? What would happen if Scotland did not or could not join the EU - would we in the rest of the UK then need a visa or have trouble emigrating there, as many of our Commonwealth citizens do? Would they even wish to join the Commonwealth? Would we need a holiday visa as we do if we visit Australia?
Who would get a Scottish passport - people who reside there but who were not born there? What about the people born in Scotland but who moved away, would they be eligible for a Scottish passport?
Excuse me if these questions seem naive but how many people know the answers?
The Games were such a success it would be a pity never to stage them in Scotland again if they were not part of the Commonwealth.

Granny 23

Noble words but didn't the ship sink under the Darien Scheme?

Scotland has a lot of independence in it's financial, legal and welfare provision. If Scotland wanted to it could have no food banks. If Scotland wanted to it could stop it's councils, universities etc. etc. paying zero hours I am of the belief that it could do so now, or am I mistaken?

I think Alex Salmond, at times, uses a lot of spin to try and cover the UK government in excrement to further his political ambitions for an Independent Scotland. If Scotland does become an independent country at least you will find out what metal he is actually made of as he will have to come up with the goods, if not at least you know the decision was yours and yours alone. Of course there is always the question if Salmond is not around too long who do you have blind faith in to take the enormous decisions a country requires to maintain it's wealth and social care. I honestly think that Scotland would soon be ruled by a political elite and wealth creators, no different to any other country, well maybe China, Russia and North Vietnam.

I have said all along this vote will be head over hear or visa versa. Why, because the facts being given are at based on nothing more than supposition and political spin by all parties.

Personally I think the armed forces question is too difficult to answer. So many if's and but's ! The mere thought that Wales, England and Northern Ireland would not stand ready to defend an attack on Scotland a few months ago would have been inconceivable. If Scotland chooses to be independent I guess the ball game has changed and it will be every man for himself, at least that's how I have come to view the rhetoric over the last few months, especially coming from the Scottish side.

As for every man for himself I think that sums up the whole issue. There has been no talk of what positives the 4 nations of the UK have achieved through sharing, family and watching each others backs. That's not the kind of talk that appeals to nationalistic traits though is it from any of the countries involved.

I used to be a very active member of CND until I heard the quote 'if you want peace prepare for war', and I'm afraid we live in such a dangerous age that is even more valid now. I still believe in multilateral disarmament, though, if possible. I think Scottish Independence would make more sense to me if I didn't feel that it was one big Alex Salmand ego/power trip. Either way, the result of the vote had to be decisive; I don't want this to drag on and on forever if the vote is against but only by a narrow margin. I'd rather have a narrow margin 'for' win if that was the case.

I heard this morning that Salmond has no Plan B if Scotland is not allowed to join British currency. He said if it is denied Scotland will not contribute to the national debt!

What planet is that man on?

I am heartened to see that Mr. Salmond's attempts to dress the operation of an independent Scotland in terms of a Utopian and sunny existence amongst heather-blessed hills in a land of highland make-believe last seen on the old White Heather Club with Moira, Kenneth and Andy, are unravelling under close scrutiny. The Scots are a canny race and will not easily be deceived. I too have little time for the present UK coalition but I think that it would be wrong to blame them all the world's ills. Much good has come out of the UK.