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Getting drunk.

(85 Posts)
NanKate Thu 28-Aug-14 10:21:38

I read in the paper this week criticism of a retiring judge Mary Jane Mowat who said that women who get drunk are making themselves vulnerable to rape.

She has been pilloried for this very sensible statement IMO.

As a teenager my mother always warned me that I needed to keep my wits about me, especially where alcohol was involved. This advice stood me in good stead.

I am not saying that women need to dress very conservatively or not drink, just that we need to take responsibility for our own safety.

What do you think ?

NfkDumpling Tue 02-Sep-14 17:59:15

A mystery to me too Ginny!

I think Mishap your poor paraplegic colleague sums it up perfectly. So many people going for a good night out metaphorically jump over that wall, and have a lucky landing - but some, like him, aren't so lucky. Best to not get drunk enough to chance the jump(!).

ginny Tue 02-Sep-14 14:49:32

I just want to know why anyone would deliberately go out to get drunk on an evening out. Do they not have enough personality to be able to enjoy themselves without drinking themselves silly? Where do they want to waste money on an evening out and then not remember it ? So many youngsters are keen on saying that they are their 'own person' and why should they follow the crowd and yet surely that's exactly what they are doing.

Atqui Tue 02-Sep-14 10:50:49

Thanks for posting that link thatbags. its a pity the article wasn't published in the DM where ( if my memory serves me correctly) her original comments on the difficulties of getting convictions were reported and misinterpreted by many.

granjura Tue 02-Sep-14 10:07:17

An excellent article thatbags. The point I made earlier, is that if a boy is as drunk and drugged up as the victim- he could be considered a victim too, in many ways. It all gets so complicated.

I was also so lucky as a young woman to be surrounded by slightly older men friends who always looked after me- even when I was foolish enough to drinl too much and put myself in danger.

Mishap Tue 02-Sep-14 09:59:47

A drunken woman may get frisky of her own (inebriated) volition and engage in an activity that she wishes she had not the next morning. It is of course absolutely wrong that a man should force a woman to have sex against her will, but in a drunken state (probably both parties) the normal social niceties go out of the window. It is important for both men and women to take responsibility for their lives and to avoid getting drunk to the point where they are incapable of making judgements and doing things that they later regret or that cause them harm.

I worked with a young paraplegic man whose life had been ruined by jumping over a wall whilst drunk, having forgotten about the sheer drop on the other side.

NanKate Tue 02-Sep-14 09:44:08

I think the article says it all thatbags from an experienced judge who has seen the consequences of binge drinking.

thatbags Tue 02-Sep-14 09:22:51

Today's article by Mary Jane Mowat makes interesting reading.

Eloethan Sun 31-Aug-14 21:28:13

I thought the Judge was just commenting on a legal point, but on reading a bit further, this woman has quite a history of making controversial decisions that seem to favour men.

This included sparing a 41-year old ex-soldier a prison sentence for having sex with a 13-year old girl, on the grounds that the girl "did most of the running".

TriciaF Sun 31-Aug-14 08:01:35

If they were both drunk, how could they even remember if they'd had sex, or positively identify eachother?
Remember that episode of Montalbano when he shared a bed with the blonde girl, she asked in the morning, "Did anything happen last night?"
If they can't remember anything how can there be any proof?

Aka Sun 31-Aug-14 07:47:41

She didn't say that and it wasn't a foolish remark, she was making a legal point. Have you read her actual words in context? She said drunken women made poor witnesses after the event as they couldn't remember what had happened or if they gave permission. So in fact it may not have been a rape but consensual drunken sex. I quoted her words earlier.
A case like that should not even have got to court

absent Sun 31-Aug-14 01:22:39

The low conviction rate for rape, matched by the low prosecution rate for rape in the first place, is the result of many factors, as any judge should know quite well. Drunken victims are by no means the main reason. This was a foolish comment that once again suggests that women are to blame when they are assaulted.

Eloethan Sat 30-Aug-14 20:22:59

The Judge commented that it would be difficult for a jury to find a man guilty of rape if his accuser stated she couldn't remember whether or not she had consented to having sex. That is a legal point and should not be linked with views as to how a woman should conduct herself.

I thought it was an unwise and pointless comment as it is unlikely to change women's behaviour - which is influenced by a number of things, including the culture in which they live, their age and life experience and their state of mind - and it immediately shifts the focus away from the behaviour of men to the behaviour and implied culpability of women.

A lot of people - myself included- would agree that it is unwise for people (men and women) to get drunk in a public place because it alters their judgment and leaves them vulnerable to a number of risks.

But when it is said that women can do what they like but they should be "prepared to accept the consequences", I feel this is unacceptable. Would we blame people for getting mugged because they were drunk?

rosesarered Sat 30-Aug-14 17:49:37

Very true JessM

JessM Sat 30-Aug-14 09:56:43

Sad reality is that if you drink until you are drunk and incapable you re unable to look after yourself. You are at risk of a whole range of crimes (handbag theft etc as well as a range of assaults) . You are at risk of being knocked down because you are incapable of crossing roads safely. You are at risk of inhaling your own vomit if you pass out, and dying as a result. And if you keep doing it you will damage your health. By singling out "you are more likely to be raped" people cloud the issue considerably - because it sounds like you are blaming the victim rather than the perpetrator. Thus distracting everyone from the many dangers of binge drinking.

Jane10 Sat 30-Aug-14 09:46:44

People of all ages and sexes can do what they like but be prepared for the consequences. Of course these consequences vary depending on the individual. In order to reduce risk to (health alone) its wise not to become so drunk that you open yourself to abuse of whatever sort. At my age and stage I`m so sorry that we don't seem to be able to look after our girls well enough. Every day there`s another sort of horror story. The ladette culture is cool - but risky in so many ways.

henetha Fri 29-Aug-14 21:42:02

Completely agree with Marion6. The drinking habits and behaviour of some young people these days is absolutely sickening. Rape is never to be condoned under any circumstances, but some young women should stop and think what they are doing with their lives, and their health.
Is this an old fashioned view? Probably. but I don't care.
Please note that I said 'some'.. I know that there are many fine young people who simply like a social life which includes a drink or two. That's different.

NanKate Fri 29-Aug-14 19:36:07

Too true Roses.

rosesarered Fri 29-Aug-14 15:02:14

What girls have to realise is, that it may be seen as the norm to do these things, but if they do them, it could have disastrous consequences for them. You would think it would be obvious to them, as it was obvious to us [me anyway] when a teenager/young woman.It's not rocket science to think that if you are scantily clad and staggering down a street, bad things may happen.It's no good being in a group either, if all of you are drunk.Just as it's not rocket science to tell a man he can share your bed, and then expect him to behave! Naive or what.It doesn't matter how many laws are in place to punish the man...... after the act.

NanKate Fri 29-Aug-14 14:29:21

I am with you all the way Marion6.

What is worrying is this sort of behaviour seems to be accepted as the norm now.

Marion6 Fri 29-Aug-14 11:04:31

Of course it is very wrong for men to rape women under any circumstances. However, what saddens me deeply is that so many young women think that a good night out is getting very drunk and they do this on a regular basis. Why do they have to get very drunk in order to feel they've had a good evening out ?? When very drunk they are not thinking clearly and avoiding the situations that can potentially be risky. It also saddens me that some young women feel that in order to attract men they have to dress very scantily. Women have the right to dress as they wish but they should not feel they have to dress very scantily or they will not attract men. Unfortunately getting very drunk seems to be something a lot of young men do as a regular activity too and this may result in them doing things when drunk that they would never do if sober.

NfkDumpling Fri 29-Aug-14 09:41:28

When my DS used to go out on the razzle with his mates (before marriage and fatherhood) they would nominate one member of the group to stay sober and not drink in order to make sure they stayed together, got in taxis going in the right direction and didn't get up to stuff they shouldn't. The girls did the same. I think this is a sensible way forward.

NfkDumpling Fri 29-Aug-14 09:37:54

(Sorry mixed tenses)

NfkDumpling Fri 29-Aug-14 09:37:38

I have a lot of admiration for all those lads who, despite being bladdered themselves, are still able to say no when a scantily dressed young lady throws herself lastly at him!

petallus Fri 29-Aug-14 09:15:16

I was reading a newspaper article yesterday about a young man of twenty who is on trial for attempted rape of his female friend. They had been in the pub together drinking bottles of wine and then walked home to her flat holding hands and they also kissed on the lips. She said he could stay with her overnight because the last tube had gone. Although he offered to sleep on the floor, she said he could get into bed with her. She meant it to be on a platonic basis and they had done this before. However, on this occasion the young woman awoke in the midde of the night to find the young man on top of her and her pyjama bottoms removed. She screamed and asked him to go and he did straight away.

Yes, I do understand that a woman has a right to say no in any circumstances, even in the middle of the act itself which should then stop. However, I find I am ambivalent in my reaction to a situation like this.

NanKate Fri 29-Aug-14 07:52:37

Thanks Roses for your kind comment. My mum's advice works for me now too as recently I went by train to London, something I do rarely, to meet an old friend for lunch. I would have loved a second glass of wine as we were chatting happily away, but that 2nd glass (at my age) could easily have caused me to forget to pick up everything I was carrying, or accidentally trip over and yet again I felt I needed to keep my wits about me - thanks MUM.

Now to my second point. In my youth I drank, stayed out late, had some dodgy boyfriends, all the usual stuff, but nowadays SOME young people seem to have have taken it to a new level. Binge drinking is a regular occurrence together with having many sexual partners.

Everything seems to be about excess and call me a boring old f**t but I it saddens and horrifies me.