Why no Greens?

I think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that the performance of the Green Party in Brighton and Hove, has been pretty awful. It is no doubt something, amongst many other things, that potential Green voters will consider before the next election.

The sneering comment following the article - that the Green Party thinks itself "holier than thou" and that "voting for them is a form of selfie" - is, I think, trivial and insulting and adds nothing but prejudice to the debate.

A holier than thou attitude is insulting too and I've certainly detected that attitude amongst political Greens. They have lost my support because of it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "holier than thou"?

This definition on Wiki says it quite well, using sanctimonious and self-righteous as synonyms:

"Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others.[3]"

I perceive a great deal of intolerance in Green politics, a great deal of instructing people how they should behave, and a great deal of reminding us repeatedly of how horrible the human species is, and so on.

Which is not at all to say that I think all "greenies" are like that.

Just found this Factcheck article about what was mentioned in the OP and why Green Party candidates have not been invited to take part in TV debates.

Sorry but hasn't David Cameron now said he feels it is only fair for The Green Party to take part in the debates?????

Miliband has accused him of 'Running Scared', Clegg something similar. Mind you I think Miliband and Clegg would have more to worry about than Cameron but I suppose it sounds good to call Cameron scared [sigh]

Perhaps somebody could get a petition up for Miliband and Clegg to accept The Greens. Then again there is a petition started every day for some blooming thing or another maybe there already is one.

I think holier than thou applies to quite a few Tories as well.

Here's an interesting article from the People's Assembly.

www.thepeoplesassembly.org.uk/system_from_horse_and_carriage

Green Party membership is now greater than both the Libdems and UKIP.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/green-membership-overtakes-lib-dems-and-ukip-here%27s-13-reasons-why

I think everyone knows why Cameron is insisting that the Greens take part in the debate. Hope the broadcasters will call his bluff. Be interesting in what his decision will finally be - especially as he has been advised by Osborne not to take part, as well as Tory Central Office.

Gosh a lot of big words for this time of night, However, some like self righteousness might and I am just saying MIGHT be applied to some G/Ners.
[groin]

oops, even

white wave

I take it you don' agree the Greens should take part then?

What big words at this time of night, Nonu?

Like all parties, whatever their policies, what they say in an election campaign and what they choose (or are able) to do once they have power are two different things. This applies also to the greens, many of whose policies I agree with, particularly on education, but what might be possible if they had some degree of power or how they might perform is unknown, as with all politicians.

I think they should be in on the debate - they have a different view to offer and people should be able to hear this along with the beer-swiller.

I do not think any party has been quite as two faced as the Tories with their no top-down reorganisation of the NHS, knowing that Lansley had been working on just that for the whole of the previous parliament.

The greens haven't yet had a chance to find out what they would do if holding the balance of power. Wouldn't it be refreshing if they actually stuck to their promises?

durhamjen

One minute you invite GN's to sign a petition to get the Greens included in the debate 14th Oct 20.01.

Cameron agrees with you, aren't you happy?

The Greens make a point of telling everybody zero hour contracts are evil, and part time work is bad for the country, bad for families to earn enough money to support their families. Does anybody know if Brighton council now employs all of their staff on full time contracted employment yet? They were denounced for having approx 1,000 staff on zero hours contracts a while ago. Or are they still saying do as I say not do as I do, a charge which was levelled at them for quite a while.

Some would call Cameron 'frit' as Miliband as called him. I say it is Miliband and Clegg who are probably even more 'frit' as the Greens would take more votes off of their parties. Farage just enjoys any opportunity to have the last word.

For my money it's all about fairness. The Greens are said to be running at a higher point score in all of the polls, above the Lib Dems for sure. They have a presence in all parts of the UK so I am surprised they have not been afforded a place in at least one of the debates. I don't like the Greens particularly but I do believe it unfair not to let them have a voice. Surprised the left wing don't want to play fair also, I consider they look very petty over this matter. Farage is just being Farage but I am surprised he has agreed the Greens shouldn't be in the debates to be honest.

"But take a look at the Conservative party website today and you'll notice that there is zero mention of the environment in their 'long-term economic plan'. Reducing the deficit, cutting income tax, creating more jobs, capping welfare, reducing immigration and 'schools and skills' are all worthy of mention - but no key words like green, environment, sustainable or renewable are seen anywhere.

The party even appears to have changed its logo again - gone is the green squiggle that represented its environmental modernity - replaced by the nationalistic red, white and blue of the Union Jack.

Britain has (or perhaps had) a chance to become a global leader in green energy, to create jobs and growth in an emerging market that one day will be in demand all over the world.

It is a short-sightedness and a lack of courage that has seen this u-turn in philosophy. Cameron and Osborne may be following traditional Conservative policies, but in doing so they are ignoring the long-term welfare of the nation. Investment in renewable energies is at risk of disappearing and our economy is moving ever closer to fossil fuel dependency.

Pro-environmental policies may mean short-term spending increases, but ultimately they will lead to long-term security. Sadly, as much as David Cameron promises to stick to his pledge, it is clear that the blue and yellow coalition has unequivocally failed to make a green government."

This is from a Huffington Post article last year. Again, something that Cameron promised but which did not materialise.

It makes me for one wonder why he wants the Green Party in the debates, because they can quite easily demolish his green credentials.
Where did I say I wasn't happy about Cameron's stance on the Green Party,POGS?

I think Farage is probably terrified of the Greens and wants them excluded because he doesn't want anyone else to think they have some sound policies. Also he is an odious little man who says the most dreadful things every time he opens his mouth.

It's strange that some people can be upset by Green Party policies which appear to tell them what to do and so they feel the Greens are 'sanctimonious and self righteous' and yet they overlook that this is what the Tories have been doing for the last decade! I've never seen politicians more smug than Cameron and his chum Osbourne and so many people have bought their ideology that we all have 'choice' and that those who are unemployed and/or on benefits are somehow freeloaders has changed the mental outlook of the UK to the detriment of all. Pretty self righteous I'd say.

Caroline Lucas is an able, hard working and honest politician. Not being in power, the Greens are as yet untested and unmired in the economic realities that cause political turnarounds. It is unfair to keep bringing up Brighton Council workers because the Green council was in an invidious position at the time. I don't think the Labour Party can hold their heads high on the political honesty front and I think it is extraordinary that a viable political party can be refused airtime.

Either I think that this country is innately conservative in wanting to maintain against all odds a three-party (well, two really) system of moribund politics or I find myself unwillingly thinking that it's about an elite wanting to hang onto power at all costs. I think what frightens people about the Greens is that they are at an idealistic point where they can ask that we consider whether the way we live is fair - and that we should be creating a fair society (the way Labour used to try to do) and recognising that climate change is real and that we have to stop living it up at the cost of our children and grandchildren.

“No individual within Brighton & Hove City Council is considered to be employed on a zero-hours contract. However the council does have a wide variety of casual workers who work hours on an ad hoc basis across service areas where additional capacity or cover is needed for seasonal work or staff absence. There is no ‘mutuality of obligation’ with casual workers and consequently there is no expectation that the council would offer work or that individuals would accept it if work were offered.

Consequently, there is no ongoing contractual relationship. If we used zero hours contracts, there would be an on-going contractual relationship with these individuals even when they are not working.

However, in reality there is no real difference between the two and the terms “zero hours” and “casual” are used interchangeably in employment cases in tribunals. In view of this, we are providing you with information relating to casual workers who undertook work for the council during the three month period, May to July 2013.”

During this period, 1254 casual workers were engaged. This figure excludes casual workers who may have been engaged by schools.

The demand for casuals to perform various roles fluctuates but the main areas are:
Care (‘Care Crew’ is a bank of casual workers) (this intriugues me – what conditions do these people work in I wonder).
Administration (‘Admin All Areas’ is a bank of casual workers)
Brighton Centre & Royal Pavilion – security and setting up of events/shows
Contact Supervisors – they provide supervision for visits between children and parents
Libraries
Hostels & Supported Accommodation
Electoral Services – electoral roll, poll clerks etc
Seafront lifeguards"

A freedom of information request in 2013 about Brighton Council. They say there are no workers with zero hours contracts with them, but lots of casuals. They say there is no difference, but the way I see it is that zero hours contracts commit people to only working for the one company, and not being able to turn down work when given. I note they exclude school supply teachers.

Great contributions durhamjen though the last especially took some wading through!

I hate personal attacks but my feeling about Cameron agreeing to the Greens being included is that he is both smug and stupid! Smug because I think he really believes the Tories have won on both ideological and financial fronts and stupid because he endlessly throws up ideas and bombastic statements which you can imagine have the civil servants throwing their hands up in horror and which then have to be retracted and he truly, probably, thinks it would be unfair not to give the Greens airtime. I suspect he also thinks they don't stand a chance in the election and so it costs him nothing to appear magnanimous.

Brighton Council gets endlessly attacked and used to make cheap points against the Greens in general. However, in Brighton schools, GCSE results are up; the Council won a European transport award last year; there's been a significant increase in visitors to Brighton (boosting the local economy) and they're building the largest number if council houses built anywhere for decades.

I'm undecided who I will vote for, but I do think David Cameron will not like debating with Nigel Farage on immigration.

I look forward to hearing the debates, I like a bit of argy bargy !

durhamjen

I did not say you were not happy! I asked if you were, Stop twisting my words!

First you point GN's to a petition to get The Greens included in the debates. Then when Cameron says the same as you all you have done is attack him . I don't understand that sort of behaviour and so I shall have to assume you are happy if the Greens do join at least one debate but not happy if it comes about because it was not your petition or a third party you only respect has brought that scenario to fruition .

I don't have a problem how/who managed to get the Greens into the debate as I simply do not care nor feel tribal about it. It is either fair or not and I think it is fair for the Greens to take part.

Your post of 10.43 today is , if I am not mistaken?, word for word taken from an internet search to www.brighton-hove.gov.UK. Fair enough but it actually is a mealy mouthed comment re the council using zero hour contracts from an obvious 'vested interest'.

I distinctly remember watching and reading comments concerning The Greens hypocrisy a while ago when zero hour contracts were spoken of with much zeal. There were many with no 'vested interest' in defending nor attacking the council who just called it as it is, hypocrisy.

Brighton Council may dress it up and call it 'casual labour' and get away with it with some people but I see no difference between Brighton council and any other business calling it 'casual labour' other than the latter is accused of using zero hour contracts and are given grief for doing the same.

I remember The Greens were repeatedly accused of hypocrisy some time ago whilst zero hours was the talk of the day by the Unions, BBC political progs, and others. I mention those so it cannot be attributed to the Tories which is the norm.

I am sick of politicians saying zero hours should not be allowed, the living wage should be paid and then we find out they are first class hypocrites and their own constituent councils use zero contract hours (casual labour) , don't pay the living wage, some MP's employ interns on no wage at all! That applies to the whole lot of them whatever nationality or party colour because they all do it.

Correction

www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/content/council-and.../news/casualworkers

If that works!