ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Eminthebigsmoke, my deepest sympathies on the loss of your mother.

I can see where the situation with your father's new partner could be very awkward for you (and maybe her as well). I also see where it's normal for someone's life to change a bit when a new person comes into their lives. So it doesn't surprise me that df doesn't visit as often, etc. How about keeping in touch with him by skype and letters, etc? And letting the kids keep in touch with him that way, too? Things have changed, but you can change things, also, to help make the situation better.

FightingEstrangement, I feel for you and your mum, as well. I think it's great that you were able to give us some idea of both sides of the issue - that's something we don't usually get on boards like these.

If I may, in your mum's defense, she probably ignored you when you misbehaved as a child because that was the only effective method of discipline she knew. Doing it for days at a time was way over the top though. I am so sorry about that. (((Hugs)))

Now it's a habit, I suppose. I bet she deals like that with everyone right?

Since much of your relationship with her is good, I would say try to keep it going. But you're finding it "exhausting," so that's a different story. imo. Could you find other childcare? Fill your lives with other activities, etc. so that when she pulls away for you for weeks at a time, perhaps you won't feel it as much? Then you can be freer to say and do as you please (not rude, of course) without worrying so much about offending her. Then whetehr you see each other or not and how often will be all on her. Think about it.

If you have a tendency to be rude or know-it-all (some young parents are, I find), and that's what offends her, then please try to curb that behavior. It may take a while, but it will be worth it in the end if it helps your relationship with her.

Smiles You might say child-in-law is controlling, however not wanting to not do anything is a good enough reason to not do. All the EGP can do is self examine for their flaws, not fret about CILs flaws.

It all seems so very sad and calculating ?Why would loving grandparents be described as toxic?

Fighting estrangement that was excellent post. Your mother is sooo lucky, it was horrid to ignore you for days that was very wrong,

I also think she is very wrong to make you and Grankids her who le life, that is too pressurising On you in my opinion.

I have excellent relationship with my son and a. Very close to my twitter. Brother a d his eldest son, he happily,shares his grandkids with me?

I kinda knew our s i law did t like us but never ever dreamt he would actively work at removing our daughter entire family,
That's her parents, brother, aunts uncles cousins godparents the lot,
Are we all toxic?

Our daughter no longer cares if we live or die, and that is very hard to accept.

Celegran "Why would loving grandparents be described as toxic?"

Because the 'loving GPs' are not, they are toxic.

Why Arabia? What makes them Toxic, can u define that statement?

Toxic GPs: Toxic people don't respect others or their wishes. Toxic people don't encourage others or allow others to grow and change. Toxic people are self centered, everything is all about them, always. Toxic people are passive aggressive and never direct. Toxic people make others very unhappy. Toxic people are angry and disagreeable.

Sweeping statements! I would imagine most people have some toxic Elements.

By those definitions I would probably be "toxic" as I don't think my children have fulfilled their promise ... although I do resist telling them so!! I have a very loving relationship with my adult DC as long as I agree with them. In fact in our family it's looking it might go the other way. I feel I have more in common with my parents generation and aspirations than my adult children's.

By other way I mean I would estrangement them!!!

Gosh Araabra, you've just described my d.i.l. You seem to have a very poor view of GP's. What you've posted is a very good description of a toxic person be they parents, GP's, sons, daughters, s.i.l., d.i.l., siblings or parents in law and yet, you chose it only to describe toxic GP's.

I understand that for some it's almost impossible to believe that loving parents who once had a healthy relationship with their AC, can find themselves abandoned and denied a relationship with their GC. I too would have found it difficult to believe that welcoming an AC's partner into your family and doing all that you could to be supportive of their relationship with your AC, could result in that person ripping your entire family apart, ultimately aided by the AC you'd adored. But you know what; it happens. Can't remember who said it, but it has been said that sometimes in life fact is stranger than fiction.

Toxic applies to anyone. The question was about GPs. My answer was what is toxic. I haven't read of numbers of GP cutting off their AC, nor was the question worded that way. IF a dil has some bit in a CO, supporting her DH, CO makes some sense.

My friend was cut out of her sons life, and as a consequence, of her grandchildren's too, because her son and his partner were drinking, taking drugs, etc
She tried to help her grandchildren and ended up with the police visiting her to inform her that if she continued to 'harass' her son, she would be arrested.

* "My friend was cut out of her sons life, and as a consequence, of her grandchildren's too, because her son and his partner were drinking, taking drugs, etc
She tried to help her grandchildren and ended up with the police visiting her to inform her that if she continued to 'harass' her son, she would be arrested." *

What is the missing bit? She was CO because she harassed her DS about drinking? Was DS arrested for drinking? Was the drinking a one off for Boxer's Day?

Smiles "You seem to have a very poor view of GP's."

No, I have a great view of GPs if they mind their own business and allow their AC to raise the GC as they choose. I don't understand why EGPs believe they have any right to intrude on the lives of other adults.

Ah, the missing bit, Aarabra:
She obviously tried to help her son, which wasn't welcomed, and she went to the school, to try and get some help there.
She informed social services, (who did nothing)
Her son was, and still is an alcoholic, with drug issues. Her daughter in law is currently in rehab (again) and her two granddaughters are both in care, separately, and have been for the last 6 years.

Araabra

How would you account for a situation in a family with two male AC, where one is married to a kind and loving woman who enjoys a good relationship with his parents, and allows them free access to the grandchildren. Yet, the other AC is married to a woman who has constantly tried to alienate his parents and refuses access to their children - for no discernible reason. For a peaceful existence he turns away from his parents, much to their despair.

Could it just be that the two DIL's have vastly different personalities?

Viewing a GP (or anyone else for that matter) as 'toxic' can often depend on the perspective of the accuser, their upbringing, their experiences, etc etc

I'm sure many estranged, so-called toxic GP's, have naval gazed endlessly in an effort
discover the cause of an estrangement. Sometimes there isn't a straightforward answer.

We are human and therefore we all have flaws...

Exactly fairydoll

To cause such profound heartbreak for a loving mum and dad as our daughter has is really really sad.

There was. Ever any need to be so severe, to go from crazing my life out to drive see her when her dad was at work, to cutting me off completely and saying it is all my fault I am violent and aggressive. It hurt me more than I believe any mum could have deserved a modicum of compassion or respect.

We will never know ifs or whys now we just have to focus on those that do love us,
However it is a living bereavement from which there is no end to the Grief.

I csredmfor my mum til the end, my dad sadly died suddenly, but my beloved f imlaw took a lot of care and I was so happy to return the support he had always given me.
Sadly our daughter cut us off just after he died.

I didn't care for him or my mum out of duty or obligation it just didn't occur to me to do anything else as I loved them so.

I do wonder if our ed ever loved us.

Toxic Grandparents do exist. They are out there. But being a Grandparent has nothing to do with it. Toxic people become parents then grandparents.

I only have experience with Grandparent relationships so have no advice on how to deal with DIL/SIL etcs.

My children have no relationship with my MIL. Shes acted really bad, said and done some really nasty things cross us, threatened me, spread rumours about me and so on. Shes bemused why she doesn't see our DDs. Our children arn't weapons, we are not playing a game. We are protecting them.
We ignored all contact made in the end as she wasn't listening, we told her how she acted wasn't on and it hurt us. That was then followed lots of emails about her, how we took it the wrong way, she didn't mean it like that, its not her fault we took it that way, and how upset she was that we had spoke to her like that. We acknowledged her hurt but she wouldn't acknowledge ours. She then wanted a list of things she had done wrong, which we didn't do. If you hurt someone, you dont get to decide you didn't or dictate how much hurt they should be feeling. You say sorry, thats normal right?

We haven't seen her for nearly 4 years. My mental health has vastly improved and the physical symptoms subsided long ago.

Dealing with a toxic person is exhausting. Its like hitting your head against a brickwall.

Of course toxic people do exist but I think sometimes this label can be assigned to someone all too quickly. Yes, I agree that some become parents and grandparents; they also become son in laws and daughter in laws.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we are moving into a society that cuts out, cuts off and dismisses anything or anyone that isn't quite 'right' , doesn't gratify us or make us 'happy.'

I don't know if that's a good example we should be setting our children/grandchildren.

Honestly, would you say that to somone who was in an emotionally abusive marrige? Those Toxic people can also be wives and husbands.

Both of my DDs are school aged. I try to teach them that basically, they are awesome. Nothing should ever dull their sparkle, if somone is mean to you it, its their problem, not yours. If somone trys to make you feel bad, its their personality not yours. Be kind, apologies if you upset somone and be the friend you would like to have. They shouldn't ever have to tolerate emotional abuse. From anyone, let alone family who say they do it out of love and care.

Goodness! No! I wouldn't say that to anyone who'd been in an emotionally abusive marriage!!

My last point was that, perhaps, we give up all too easily on things that could maybe be resolved.

RedheadedMommy "Nothing should ever dull their sparkle, if somone is mean to you it, its their problem, not yours. If somone trys to make you feel bad, its their personality not yours. Be kind, apologies if you upset somone and be the friend you would like to have. They shouldn't ever have to tolerate emotional abuse. From anyone, let alone family who say they do it out of love and care."

Precisely

Emotional abuse is just that, abuse. Why should anyone tolerate it from their spouse, friend or parent. Thats what Toxic is.

We tried, beleive me but Toxic people really arn't normal. You cannot talk or get your side across. I had it for 3 years at my most vulnerable (Pregnancy and whilst i was in labour) and when i had PND. Its been 4 years and ive just about repaired myself, its alot of work. Its taken me years to get here, my self esteem is back and the fog has lifted. There is no one on this earth who can convince me now that what she has done is out of love and care.