ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Notanan you have hit the nail on the head. There are some things you describe which has happened in my situation.

It started going downhill for us when I had DD and grandchildren came onto the scene. It then become my fault and went from bad to worse.

'An AC may "keep peace" with their parents face to face but offload about how damaging they find their relationship to their partner to the point where their partner may say "why on earth would we let them do the same to the children if they're as awful as you say?" - so the actual moment of NC may come from the DIL/SIL, but is not caused by them IYKWIM'

This hit home.

Have a great holiday Fairydoll.

You're right about bullies Notanan, they don't bully everyone, they look for the weakest because bullies are cowards. They behave differently with those they aren't victimizing so they wont be seen for what they are, but if someone does see through the facade and they're too strong to become another one of their victims, they stop having anything to do with them.

RedheadedMommy "It started going downhill for us when I had DD and grandchildren came onto the scene. It then become my fault and went from bad to worse."

This is a very common theme. Things are ok until the AC has GC, then boom, all the dysfunction bubbling below the surface blows up, Reykjavik.

Yes it is a common theme, but not always because "all the dysfunction bubbling below the surface blows up", sometimes it's because the only dysfunction is the never before witnessed jealously of the s.i.l. or d.i.l. who when their own child comes along, wants that child and their partner all to themselves. Often more than happy to remain in contact with their own parents but wants nothing to do the parents of their partner.

That said, our ES's wife has no contact with her mother and very little with her father.

Oh horse hockey, blame the CIL.

Smileless I clashed with ed despite us being very close and cherishing each other.

After her wedding I sensed a shift towards s i law family and he was ridiculously close to them had to speak to his mum Daily so it was always going to be us out picture not them. Having our adored first Grandchild seemed the trigger and it has hurt us both more than we could have ever believed possible.

Life goes on but will never be the same. We had no chance to have our say or offer to change anything we were hung without a jury,
I adored my daughter and Grandaughter we were beyond thrilled to be Grandparents like yourselves, I will always hug the memory of holding xxxxxxxx at few hrs old no one can take that joy away from me.

Sadly it was a brief nine months before our hearts were totally broken.

I'm wondering what your frame of reference is Araabra, if indeed you even have one. I'm talking from personal experience and do acknowledge that there are instances where an AC sadly has no other choice but to cease contact with their parents and prevent their children from knowing their GP's.

You seem to be unable or unwilling to acknowledge that there are also instances when such behaviour isn't warranted. When a once close and loving relationship is destroyed by the toxic jealousy of an AC's partner.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you fail to see any correlation whatsoever with our ES's wife who for the second time since their first child was born has cut her own mother out of her life and has very little contact with her own father.

I say since their child was born as they married abroad with only myself and Mr. S. present because she'd cut both of her parents out and didn't want them at her wedding. At that time she was constantly telling us how much she loved us, how she wished I was her mum blah, blah, blah.

Estrangement isn't black and white, theres so much grey.
It's very possible that grandparents have been cut out due to toxic DIL/SIL just as its possible for MIL/FIL to be toxic. Its all about control and abuse, when they can't control anymore it then starts going bad which is why grandchildren/children added to the mix starts the behaviour.

My MIL saw some kind of ownership of my DD from the day she was born. DH was her son and that excused all her behaviour, she she was HIS mother. Her expectations were different to ours. That added to be a relationship that wasn't there added more strain. Arguments started in the first few days which there was no need for. DH stood up for us and it just steam rolled from there. It was like he had a voice and that wasn't acceptable. Which sounds mad.

Now, imagine being married to a person who behaved in that way. You'd have no hope in hell would you? Brainwashed, conditioned, they love you so much, they are only doing it to protect you, why would you doubt them? Dont you love them? Chip chip away but worded so you're the bad person and they are the victim.

In whatever circumstance, its emotional abuse.

Yes, it is emotional abuse and because there are no physical injuries to be seen I think that sadly, sometimes the damage it can cause can be under estimated.

"It was like he had a voice and that wasn't acceptable"; it doesn't sound mad RedheadedMommy, it sums up really well our situation. We became the 'bad' people and she the victim.

Smiles My frame of reference is my husband's brother's child and partner and resulting GC.

I do not know any instances where the AC has no choice or that the behaviours are a jealous ACIL. Choices are available. I do not know anybody who suffers from toxic abuse and is unable to escape.

I fail to see correlation in your case, not knowing many facts, because you have no idea the true family details of your ES's wife, merely what you perceive.

Smiles Maybe d i l has magic lady bits? Common explanation.

I`ve started to look forward to Araabra`s posts - they make me laugh out loud

Ahh I see, so you've decided to tar all abandoned parents and denied GP's with the same brush and because you don't "know any instances where the AC has no choice or that the behaviours are a jealous ACIL" and, you don't "Know anybody who suffers from toxic abuse and is unable to escape", you simply refuse to accept the possibility that either of those scenarios exist.

"You have no idea the true family details of your ES's wife, merely what you perceive" Wrong again. Her parents were friends of ours, her mother and I good friends, for 4 years before our son met her; it was his future mother in law who introduced them.

I don't know if 'magic lady bits' is a common explanation but it's a very immature turn of phrase.

No one said anything about "magic lady bits" until you did Araabra? Why project that idea onto Smileless?

Sometimes someone feels trapped in an abusive situation even though there are "choices," Araabra. Maybe their spouse has convinced them that no one else cares about them or that they will lose the kids if they go. Whatever. It's not that simple. I don't say that's always the case, but sometimes it is.

Stars the magic bits began in another post, but Bippity is spot on calling magic a common parental excuse.

Oh dear. Really shouldn't have logged on to GN! Overnight flight to Cape Town. Catch up sleep this afternoon and now sitting on balcony waiting for DH to emerge from his zombie like state. Anyway, enough about me....

Looks like it's been 'kicking off' again during the past couple of days.

If you can't get your point across, descend into vulgarity Araabra, why don't you...

Interesting that your point of reference (as requested by Smiles) is your brother in laws child and partner plus grandchild. You then 'accuse' Smiles of '.....not knowing many facts because you have no idea of the true family details of your ES's wife, merely what you perceive. However you have given your opinion - many times - apparently based on your nephew/niece's s (by marriage) relationship. So is that's not your 'perception' of someone else's relationship/family. Of course it is!

You come across as someone who is either very bitter or carries a lot of guilt. You have not come onto this thread to offer anything in terms of support, sympathy or constructive opinion. You make nasty, barbed comments calculated to upset people who are already in pain, and then descend into ridiculous phrases such as oh horse hockey.. Shame on you.

You do yourself a grave dis-service and, if anyone is in need of some self-reflection, I'm afraid it's you

To everyone else...
DH now champing at the bit for food, so must go. Might be back on later

Fairydoll safe journey and welll done for your articulate post, ditto smileless.

I a m afraid I didn't think axxxx was worth responding to but am so glad you have both made such good job of outing the vulgar posters for what they are,

Ah yes. On the other thread Bibbity refers to magic virginia

Isn't that the place immortalised in a song..?..

Country roads, take me home
To the place I belong
Magic Virginia mountain momma
Take me home.

With apologies to John Denver

Ahhhh. Magic Virginia, Jamestown built into failed colony so long a go.

Celeb. We are here in Cape Town already! Overnight flight last night. Feeling very tired but starving so just ate in hotel restaurant. Off on our travels tomorrow along the Garden Route to the Eastern Cape.
Haven't been to SA since we worked here in the 1980's.

DH complaining I spent too long on the IPad so must try to avoid further forays into Gransnet!

Aagh enjoy fairydoll i donget that complaint also! Is it summer there? Believe so?

Yes, it's Summer! Shade temp 22 earlier today.

Have fun, Fairydoll!

The title "epidemic" is a bit edged over into absurd.