ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Thank you Saturnvista and no my EstD would not have cut us out if she wasn't with her husband & his mother, by whom she has been brainwashed, 'Stockholm syndrome! . However she could have said "No" Question for you; If your husband said to you he dislikes your parents, brothers, sisters & your entire birth family and he said to you, in his opinion they were bad for your C and he wanted them cut out for good, would you do it??
I did say a similar thing to my estD, when we were first cut out, I said 'you have shown your love for your husband by cutting out everyone that loves & adores you & your C, your mum, sister, granddad, aunties everyone, now ask him to show you his love for you by doing the same to his family" (emailed)

whenim64 I agree that the scenarios you outline in your first paragraph are what we should be aiming for.

I'm sure there are grown-up children who act in the thoughtless, self-interested way you describe. I personally have never come across anyone on the mumsnet boards, or in real life, who has denied access to grandchildren without enduring significant emotional damage themselves while trying everything they knew of to keep the relationship going. As I've said before, the last straw is often the grandparent's behaviour towards their grandchildren.

My own parents in law pointed out that our children would judge us harshly for denying them contact with their grandparents while they were growing up. I acknowledge that they might do this, just as they might disagree with many aspects of our parenting choices. But we can't, in good conscience, make decisions in the hope that they'll like us when they're grown-ups. For what it's worth, I would understand if my parents had decided that access to bullying grandparents put an unacceptable level of strain on the family but I accept that others may feel differently. At the moment, we couldn't even attend a funeral on that side of the family because we have been threatened with such serious physical violence. In the recent past, my husband and I were asked not to return to a children's facility where we had spent a month volunteering and building relationships with children who had been rescued from traumatic home situations, simply because my father in law had spoken to the directors and made some very serious allegations. We had travelled many thousands of miles to work with these children. As a result, our daughter was unable to see her new friends again or even say goodbye to them.

It reaches a point where one stops caring if they are a legend in the family photograph album or not, to be honest.

But I do agree that in most situations the relationship between grandchildren and grandparents is life-giving and important for both parties. It should be protected and unaffected by differences in opinion between grandparents and their grown-up children.

There's a big difference between keeping irritating grandparens at arm's length and cutting them out of their grandchildren's lives. Most complaints fall in the first instance and can be managed without major fallouts, with the children being largely unaware that anything is amiss. Fortunately, we can usually navigate tensions in relationships in the best interests of the children. Even better, I would hazard a guess that this is not something most families have to deal with and grandparent-children relationships are healthy, loving and secure.

Deliberate alienation and cutting out grandparents by using children as weapons with which to emotionally harm grandparents and/or separated spouse are on another level entirely. This is something that children will query and work out for themselves later in life, when they become aware of who the significant people should be and wonder why they aren't seeing them in their lives. If they were causing harm or presenting an unacceptable risk to the children, and not prepared to change, I can see why they might be cut out. Deliberate alienation for reasons of inconvenience, fresh starts because of a new relationship, hostility to the other parent - I despair at the thinking that it's ok to just cast off grandparents and convince themselves they're putting the children's wellbeing first. I know so many older adults who tell stories about their own wayward grandparents who were explained as being irritating and self-obsessed, but they remained part of family legends and referred to with a degree of acceptance, photos there to contribute to the person's sense of who they are and where they came from, what family resemblances there might be. It should be something serious and likely to have a lasting harmful effect, considered after fruitless attempts to achieve change where that is possible, that makes parents give up and end contact.

janeainsworth On the face of it,no , I don't think that withdrawing from grandparents is worth it, just to be a bit happier in life. Perhaps the mums posting on mumsnet tend to be more reflective. They are usually describing situations where children are caught up in mind games against their parents, are themselves being badly hurt by their grandparents, or are suffering because of related health issues or marital problems within the family unit. I do think that a grandparent who is prepared to criticise a parent to a grandchild is probably not a positive element of a child's life. Bringing up my own children, I'm keenly aware that most of what they need to thrive emotionally comes from the stability of the immediate family unit and good emotional health in my Dh and I. I see my role as a parent to make sure they have this. Sometimes grandparents make it much harder, if not impossible, to achieve this. As valuable as grandparents are, I don't think the above should be sacrificed for them.

I'm not saying that every grown up child is right in their choices.

Well coloured by my own experience of being cut out of my youngest son's life and losing my only grandchild in the process. Of being yelled at by him on the street where we both live, a mere 400 yards apart because we send our grandson bday and Christmas cards, and because I talked to him for the first time a few months ago when I saw him with my son (I didn't tell him who I was, I just said 'hello') I struggle to see how my son could be grieving for his own child's lost relationship with us, his grandparents.

Cutting off a parent when there has never been any history of abuse either physical or emotional is cruel and unjust. I struggled to maintain a relationship with my own father following my parents divorce for many, many years. In the end I gave up because the months of silence that followed even the most tenuous of contact, took me back to the day I came home from school at the age of 15 to find that the father I'd adored had simply packed his bags and left. I was crushed, devastated and heart broken.

After 10 or more years he 'phoned me on Sunday. His sister had died the day before; he has survived pancreatic cancer and was diagnosed with Parkinsons at the beginning of the year. When I answered the 'phone he said 'it's Bob', not dad, Bob. I knew it was him because I recognised his voice. He's 80 now and I hadn't realised he was that old, although I should have known as my mum is 77.

He treated me very badly but I told him that I was sorry for his loss and asked how he was coping. I dialled 1471 to get his number, I didn't even have that, and I will ring him in a few days to see how he's doing but unless he rings again, I wont contact him.

So I know what it's like to be abandoned by a parent and a child. I know that if he wishes too, we can speak on a regular basis but I wont chase after him. I guess there was something inside of him that told him if he 'phoned I would be there for him. There's something inside of me that tells me if I were to contact my son I would get one of two responses; silence or abuse.

I was married at 19, had our sons by the age of 24. We struggled as all young families do. We had boundaries for our boys that weren't always respected by grandparents but as infuriating as that sometimes was, it never entered our minds to deprive them of their grand children or their grand children of them.

What sort of example is being set here? Don't these parents realise that one day their children will be old enough to cut them out of their lives? And what are these parents going to say when their children say to them 'well you cut your parents out of your life'?

I am here for my father if he needs me although he abandoned me and for may years treated me badly. We were good parents, still are to our eldest son. We loved our boys and did the best that we could. The joy we felt when we held our grandson for the first time was only matched by the joy we felt when we held our own boys that first time. The degree of pain of our loss, 2 years and 9 months now, has never been experienced by either of us before and almost destroyed us.

"A mother's grief, unbearable
forever tears will spill
But how to grieve a child not gone
So far.......but living still"

From 'Christmas Ache' by Elizabeth Par

Saturnvista I'm interested in what you say about younger people now being less willing to tolerate things in their lives that make them unhappy, and taking steps to remove those elements or people from their lives.

I'm sure you are right in this observation, and I can understand people leaving a job they don't like, cutting off a friendship that no longer works for them, or a partner who is abusive and/or violent.

But to cut off a parent (whether or not grandchildren are involved) seems a different matter somehow, unless violence or abuse is involved, and you say yourself of adult children who have gone no-contact 'They usually grieve for children who will miss out on having grandparents'.

My question is, do you think that the grief they experience over their children missing out on grandparents is a price worth paying for their own happiness?

Interesting and thoughtful posts, saturnvista - good to hear things from a new point of view, and a mostly general point of view rather than a completely personal one.

yogagirl how dreadful for you. I wonder if your DD is able to articulate her own needs and beliefs in that relationship. She must miss you terribly.

saturnvista I found your posts interesting and enlightening. Food for thought!

I really didn't want to tell my story again, I really need to move on and stop the suicidal thoughts and concentrate on my nice D who is about to have a baby, she is as devastated by all this as me, lossing her once close sister. But I want people to understand, I knew my place, never interfered or critised! My fault was loving my D&GC with all of my heart & soul which incurred the jealousy of her husband & his mother, no relation to my beloved GD what's so ever. His mother would send me emails telling me what a wonderful time she was having watching my beloved GD grow up & she was going to make sure I never see her or my D&GS again! one email of many!

Morning
I never once criticised my S.I.L, quite the opposite and I never told my D what to do with her babies, of course iI would give advise when asked. I breast feed till my three babies were a year old, dropping the feeds from six months, till the last before bed on their first birthday. However my D didn't like breast feeding at all and only did for a matter of weeks, so totally different to me but I certainly didn't interfer in her decision. I would visit twice a week for an hour, during the week, never at w/e's so as to not encruch on their family time. I did take the babies out to the park with the two dogs, so she could relax in the bath and have some "me' time, we would do some yoga together before iI left and she said she felt rejuvenated afterwoulds.
I went on holiday with my other D, (I did invite them all too) we had been there just 24hrs when s.I.L was on the phone to me after a big argument with my D. To cut a very long story short, whilst my D stayed with me I tried to mediate between them to get then back together, but he would have none of it. I bigged him up saying that he was a good dad and husband etc...., but then when I said in a quiet, gentle voice, that it's the women that gets custody of the C & the home, it's the man tthat leaves, his hate turn from my D onto me, he took her back and cut me out, telling me I would never see mmy beloved D&GC again!
Before he came along my D&GD lived with me (father didn't want to know) we had a very close and special bond, I chose my GD name with my D and my D surprised me by naming her after me, her second & last names being mine, that's how close & loving a relationship we had. When he came along I liked him, he stayed in my house with my D for 6mnths. When my D fell pregnant with his C they moved into their own place & I gave them £5000 to help. I was at both births & my D would phone me each and every day, all was good.
They decided to marry, but couldn't afford a big wedding, so I paid and organised it for them, but with all parties having there input, it was a lovely wedding. Less than a year later I, my other D and the rest of my EstD birth family were cut out. I haven't seen or heard of them in 2.7yrs, its worse than bereavement from death! and they live just 5mins away, off the same road.

saturnvista thanks for your illuminating and helpful comments. They really do set out the perspective of many parents who aren't looking for confrontation, or to be hostile, but just want the wellbeing of their children. I agree - why would any parent expose their children to manipulation and power games from demanding grandparents when they can choose not to? Circumstances really are different from when I was a young (well, not that young!) mum and I would not tolerate behaviour I put up with from in-laws nowadays.

Fortunately, the majority of grandparents are flexible, undemanding and willing to lean over backwards to support their children and grandchildren. Do stick around - it's good to have your view.

Those are not rights! They are designed to protect the child from losing an ongoing relationship with grandparents when parents divorce. So they are not applicable unless a meaningful relationship can be proved and divorce is a factor. Unfortunately, as on my own case, the threat of legal action from grandparents can sometimes discourage parents from allowing a relationship to develop at all, since they couldn't go to court simply to begin one.

I believe that there are legal 'grandparents' rights' which might be useful for people denied contact with their grandchildren.

I agree with your MIL. (Love the username!). Thank you for reading my comments, I've thought about it a lot from both sides following our own family troubles. All the best.

As you will have seen on this particular thread, it relates to Grans who have, indeed, been cut out of their children's and grand children's lives.
However, on many other threads, if a gran complains about her daughter/daughter in laws behaviour, how she raises the grandkids, etc etc, the overwhelming majority of responses have suggested, in essence, to 'zip it', only offer help if it is asked for and, above all, do not criticise.
My 98 year old - very 'with it' - mother in law is staying with us and I read out your posts to her, Saturnvista. She agreed that it is a changing world with changing values and expectations but said it has been so sad to witness the break up of so many families now and the transition to 'blended' families. I can't really add to that...

Is that how you respond when your children try to tell you where they're coming from? I suppose that this is a situation where it doesn't matter what you would have done, really. Things change. It's possible but highly unlikely that there is no back story to an estrangement. We live in a world where children's rights are taken very seriously. Rightly, a parent will often try to achieve a scenario where a child enjoys a relationship with grandparents while also enjoying a childhood free from arguments between family members and hearing their parents criticised by the same. But those same parents, if forced to chose between extended family and freedom from stress, will opt for the latter. They are also much more likely to separate from each other for the same reason; it's a difference in values and outlook. I don't feel that any of us have rights in connection with our children and grandchildren, only responsibilities. If everyone is focused on supporting each other in whatever way is most helpful to them, there shouldn't be a problem. But sometimes quite the opposite happens, with devastating consequences for children. You would be surprised to know what a huge toll family tensions take on the mental health of young parents who are often run ragged already. If family members are making it impossible for a young parent to discharge their family responsibilities in a way that they consider adequate, or negatively impacting the life of the nuclear family in a way that is affecting the children, they are likely to evaluate the relationship. Rightly or wrongly, this happens and it is the grown up children who have the power to make those decisions. It makes sense to honestly reflect on personal behaviour and possibly unrealistic expectations when this happens because nothing will change otherwise. I suppose it may ultimately be easier for a grandparent to embrace the role of martyr rather than considering other options but it must be lonely. An older person I really respect once told me that we are always growing, learning and changing on this earth, even when older. Yes, our society needs a deeper appreciation of more mature people, but they also need to be open to the possibility that there is room for change in relation to their own attitudes and behaviour. Many young mothers on mumsnet come to feel that their mother/mother in law is almost like a demanding child competing with their own children's needs, eg. insisting that the baby be bottle fed or weaned so they can 'help', demanding sleepovers when the baby is six weeks or two years old and just wants mum... I'm sure many grandparents are unaware of how obvious their 'hints' are, or how much their well meaning guidance may come across as criticism.

Relationships

I realise now that by mistake I had gone on the wrong thread, that's why it didn't sound like any of us that you were referring to Saturnvista we moved to family section months ago.

Saturnvist Thank you for your input, very interesting post. You would have to look back on our original post on 'cut out of their lives' 1,2,3 to read our stories, none reflect what you have said on here, not from the main posters on this thread anyway. We have all been young mums bringing children, I had three, and even when their dad and I divorced, it never entered my head to cut off his family, as they were my childrens grandparents, aunties & uncles and all had the right to that mutual love and I had no right to take that away, no matter what I may have thought of them. 47yrs on we are still friends & family, even with my nasty s.I.l doing his best to brake our long standing relationships.

I'm in my early thirties with a small child. We don't see my parents in law at all. I usually post on mumsnet. A comment there caused me to have a look at gransnet. Reading a few pages of this thread suggested that my views might be helpful to some of you.

The first thing to say is that from my experience, grown-up children who go non-contact have usually tried many other things first in the hope of reconciling things peacefully. They usually grieve for children who will miss out on having grandparents; it's not just grandparents who recognise the value of that relationship. When you think of the 'silent epidemic' though, also be aware that there are aspects of our changing society that make it more challenging for grown-up children to stay connected with their parents. Many grandparents are not living with their grown-up children's other parent, meaning that there are step-grandparents to be factored in and often twice the visits. Many retired people now retire to a different country or are preoccupied with a new partner, bringing its own strains for their children. Naturally, many grown-up children are also not living with their children's other parent, meaning that times when grandparents might have been visited is often gone on access. In a world where partners come and go, I suspect that parents of grown-up children have become a little lax about refraining from criticising their child's choice of partner. In fact I know this to be true. Marriage is no longer seen as sacred.

People are having to work so hard that evenings and weekends are precious because they're the only opportunity for families to spend together. When everyone is exhausted, it takes longer to reach a point where that can be enjoyed. Grandparents often don't realise just how much stress young families are under; their expectations seem to remain the same.

Reading the threads on mumsnet might be a revelation for some of you. I agree that people now are more willing to evaluate whether a relationship is 'working for them' rather than simply putting up with it as perhaps was more common in the past. This is undoubtedly a double-edged sword.

Just as grandparents often feel they've tried hard, done no wrong and been repeatedly hurt for their pains, the in-laws often feel that too. Reading through a thread on this board, I noticed a MIL complaining that her son's partner talked too much when she visited and her son didn't speak enough. This young woman may well have felt that she was trying out of her skin to be liked and accepted. In response to the post, another poster suggested that the MIL bought her a nice spa day or experience that she could use up the next time they visited. On her own. I can only hope this advice wasn't taken because the motives would have been patently obvious! But many grandparents are like this; the daughter/son in law is seen as the duty to put up with in order to get time with their natural child and grandchild. In a world where, as I've said, people evaluate things that are making them unhappy, this is a very dangerous approach for a parent in law to take. Yet I'm sure the posters on this thread would say they hadn't put a foot wrong. A lot has been said about forgiveness but I'm not sure that comes into it as much as you'd think. One can forgive, but simply be unprepared to be treated in the same way again. In those circumstances, there isn't a relationship to salvage because the parties involved weren't willing to make one, on both sides.

Lastly, the increasing cost of living and necessity of having two breadwinners has led to many grandparents being relied upon more for childcare. It's interesting to see on this forum that grandparents, while often annoyed if they don't have enough access to their child, are often the first to complain if they feel they're relied upon too much. I wonder if it's really possible for young couples to get it right? Many women on mumsnet are very thankful to mothers in law who are willing to help out. Very. However, there is an increasing expectation in our culture that grandparents will have sole charge of their grandchildren. They often buy a cot and their own buggy in readiness for this happening. I don't think this was done so much when I was growing up and it's difficult to see why it's necessary to get the child's parents out of the way in order to enjoy the child. Many parents, especially young mums, have no desire to have the child taken off their hands for any length of time and feel both rejected and harassed by grandparents who supposedly wish to help out but really, I suspect, want to relive their own child-rearing days. This is especially true for the many mothers who are forced to work much longer hours than they would ever choose to. I cannot emphasise the suffering and stress that this causes members of mumsnet. It's not something that would cause a grandparent to be cut off but it may well jeopardise and further strain a fragile relationship. Ultimately, a grandparent's role is not a parenting one and it exists in the context of wider family, not in a vacuum. The more grandparents feel that it's something that exists just between themselves and their grandchildren, the more that children's parents will perceive this as a threat. Family doesn't, or shouldn't, behave like this.

In my own situation, our sorrowful decision to withdraw from the lives of my parents in law stemmed from their refusal to agree and keep to boundaries that I'm sure many of you would feel was reasonable. Shortly after our marriage, my father in law had spent many months trying to persuade my husband to divorce me, telling him repeatedly that I was 'not as advertised' and the marriage was doomed. He spoke like this about us to others as well. We stipulated that the criticism must stop; he must not talk about us to others and he must not criticise me to my husband. We knew that we would rather forego grandparents altogether than let our children have contact with anyone who didn't respect and affirm their parents. Sadly, these boundaries were never even remotely respected. Yet my parents in law are local church leaders, well respected and adored by many. I'm sure that many of you, if you were to meet them, would feel this was a particularly tragic casualty of 'the silent epidemic'. Please bear in mind that many grown-up children spend months or years desperately trying to articulate their difficulties to their parents. Respect that and respect how difficult it is to raise a young family and keep a nuclear family intact in today's society.

You would think it was mostly S Jane10 but there was a survey which revealed it was mostly D in their early 20s
Tegan don't take it personally, the mum's on here are all lovely mums but still cut out!
I'm afraid I've lost all hope now :'(

Wise words smileless

My youngest son has boxed himself in and I'm sure he does miss his brothers.

When my Es was ill with cancer (on the mend now) I wrote to my youngest son begging him to get in touch but he absolutely refused.

I was playing a game with my Gd from Es and we were having such fun. I couldn't help but think of my youngest son's little girl who will probably never play games with nan or know the companionship of first cousins.

Tegan

My son's estrangement also happened in the blink of an eye. I still don't know what happened but I think my youngest reverted to an adolescent state. I wish I'd been more aware of what was happening but I was in a state of shock at the time.

We must all keep the candle of hope burning. The 3 brothers were all good friends not that long ago, texting, e mailing, meeting up, lots of brotherly punching etc., and when my DH passed away I remember the eldest and youngest sobbing with their arms around each other.

Wish we had a candle emoticon so instead

It must have been a terrible time for you all when you lost your husband and you boys lost their father Falconbird. It's a terrible shame that your youngest has put himself in a position where he can't get support from his brothers and his mother. I'm sorry that I misunderstood and thought you'd lost contact with all of your sons.

The little light at the end of your tunnel sounds like mine; sometimes it flickers a bit too much and I think it's going to go out, but it's still there.

I've never understood that rhyme, I wonder who came up with it.
Estrangement from children happens regardless of their gender and thank goodness our eldest and his wife remain a big and important part of our lives.

It's hard not to take it personally Tegan. We can't stop being who we are because our children find partners to share their lives with and I can't imagine having to be on my guard at all times in case I say or do something that's not liked. I'm not saying it's like that for you but I have a friend who stresses out when she's going to see her daughter and s.i.l. and then worries for days afterwards in case she's inadvertently caused offence. Like so many of us in this situation they'd been very close until she got married.

I can't help but wonder 'where will it all end'.

I was estranged from my daughter and grandchildrn for several months once;happened in the blink of an eye and I still can't believe it happened as I'm always so cautious in my dealings with my family... even more so now my son has a family. In fact, even though I'm not actually cut off from any of them, I'm beginning to feel more and more emotionally cut off from them. Given that it seems to happen to me with both sons and daughters I've started to take it a bit personally .