ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

I am concerned that this thread might just be being used as 'research' for someone who wants to write about this subject..or am I just paranoid? Real research needs a proper 'method' and not anecdotal & unverified stories.

Not that I have a story as I am one of the fortunate majority lucky to enjoy positive relationships with my family. At the moment..there but for the grace etc

I have tried to follow the reasoning behind this thread and have an uncomfortable feeling about it too.
Quite honestly, counting up the number of "estranged. DGC/DD/DS DC/DIL/SIL " threads etc, GN is proving a depressing place these days.

I would expect that those who have become estranged from grandchildren have very few places to turn and so a site like this is an obvious place to try and find people of a similar age with a similar problem- probably to give mutual support and to try and find a solution.

There is nothing sinister in this thread. As I have stated previously, I am interested in raising awareness. I think it is a topic that should be explored by a sociologist. The increase in Divorce has possibly increased the incidents of such estrangements; how are we to know whether its social acceptance is not quietly growing and for the sake of family (whatever shape, form the modern family is) surely mutual respect and understanding is what we should be aspiring to ? Thanks to all who have contributed thus far.

You have said what I was thinking Soutra.

Maybe it would be better if it remains an undisclosed, silent, behind closed doors social condition. No research, no awareness and quiet acceptance of the status quo; would that be a better, less depressing way forward for Gransnet ? I believe strongly that there must be a way forward which would limit the suffering on all sides . I miss my two/three grandchildren but have a good life so as much as I adore my DD , I cannot spend my own remaining days wanting something that she clearly does not want.

There is no way forward unless the individuals concerned are willing to have mediation. Grandparents 'rights' are not going to heal broken relationships.
The simple fact is that you can't have a good relationship with grandchildren if you don't have a good relationship with the parents- or not unless you wait until the grandchildren are adults and wish to get to know you.
It is good to publise the problem and a Gransnet is a good place to let off steam and get support and find that you are not alone and even discuss possible solutions.
It is a complex problem and not a new problem- although divorce or couples not marrying probably makes it more common.
It may be a good idea to have a separate forum for the topic.

A separate forum would certainly help new members who need the help and support of others on the same situation.

Quite right Ariadne. A place to let off steam could help. Certainly more practical than fruitlessly trying to intellectualise an emotional situation or try to think of ways to force 'mutual' reconciliation between two parties one of whom really doesn't want to know the other and doesn't actually have to. The Grans who have accepted the sad situation they're in and get on with their lives are brave and live in hope but not necessarily expectation.

And it would be a place where they would feel welcome and could find easily.

Let's see now. Is there a way to avoid being depressed by a particular thread? Tricky one.

Got it! Don't read the thread.

#iamagenius

You don't have to read themjingl , just look at the thread titles, that's depressing enough

Most of our social problems have been intellectualised as you put it from which understanding is gained, and solutions or helpful advice is developed. I think there are several supportive threads where Grans and Mums can discuss the pain and get much needed help but knowing whether this is a growing problem remains unquantified; hence this thread . However, clearly too many think it's an ongoing personality dispute and perhaps they are right . Disagreements are rife in every human relationship, but with screens full of celebrities trying to find their roots, with the growing number family tree researchers, I wonder whether it isn't worth trying to preserve the notion that it is better to communicate ( however hard it is to hear) than to simply cut off. A mums-gransnet discussion would be very useful. Again thanks for the contributions .

Now we just need someone to start another thread on this very issue .........

If and when any pattern of behaviours cause harm, pain and heartache, it has been worth researching into hasn't it? Or is it futile ?

Yes

But is this research? Research is systematic and statistical (though no need to be cold and impersonal) and it comes to quantifiable conclusions and recommendations. Then those have to be applied to future examples, and the signals observed before the damage is done so that the crisis averted.

I reckon it needs the training of a psychologist (or a psychiatrist) to analyse the exact inter-relationships that have led to the separations, and that is not possible from a short textual account.

If this is indeed research I would not be happy for my previous post to be included to be honest.

No, it is not research of any kind ! It is a simple attempt to see just how small or large the problem is, to see if there are any common threads that could be investigated by someobe out there. I am not a sociologist but I do think that such a depressing subject , which is still quite stigmatised, should not just lie quietly outside the realms of progress . Please do not worry Katy K, I and many others ( who knows how many) will have been helped by your post ! ; I am mildly surprised by the suspicion this thread has been met with because I thought my intention was clear . I had hoped to simply count the numbers affected but hey - I stand , or sit corrected , with a fabulous cup of coffee and cake , older , wiser and only slightly frustrated. Thanks again .

I do not suggest in any way that those in the unhappy situation of being estranged from children and grandchildren should not have support/counselling etc to help them manage a difficult situation.

What I find somewhat inappropriate is the vitriolic responses and comments, that I feel, in some posts, which is on, after all, an open forum.

If people in distressing situations ask "Am I being unreasonable..." and people offer opinions and ideas suggesting they could have played a situation differently (based on the given the information) they have to be prepared to listen and reflect. Otherwise why ask the question?

If someone facing estrangement asks for advice and support from others in a similar situation to set up a support group, or to lobby health/legal organisations etc. that is an entirely different situation.

The OP here is sort of asking for this but it does not seem to be structured or backed by any clear plan but simply asking for people in troubled circumstances to tell their sad stories. This could be construed as voyeuristic. That is why I feel uneasy.

Also, sadly, we all have to recognise that grandparents do not have any automatic rights over their grandchildren. Whilst it can be a joyful and mutually beneficial relationship many children thrive happily without grandparents because they have died. Some children benefit from avoiding grandparents, who after all, are not all sweet, apple-cheeked & benign.

It is the emotional needs of the child that should be paramount in all adult /child relationships.

I wonder whether it isn't worth trying to preserve the notion that it is better to communicate ( however hard it is to hear) than to simply cut off. A mums-gransnet discussion would be very useful

I don't think that many people simply cut off-most have had a lifetime of trying to communicate, and have made the decision that it is never going to heal and that they need to cut off for self preservation.I doubt if more than a handful do it lightly or easily.

I can see the point of a separate forum for self help. I don't think AIBU is the right place as it asks the question and not every poster is going to get the response they want.

I can't see any point in a Gransnet/Mumsnet discussion because every case is different and we, as the people reading it, can only go by what we are told and that is never an objective view.

Alarm bells are set off for me when grandparents refer to their grandchildren as 'our little girl/boy' ... if one of the three posters on COOTL are reading this you'll know who I'm referring too! This attitude is ridiculous..... your grandchidren are not YOURS (deliberate caps here) . They share our DNA... that's all. And don't forget, they also share their father's/ mother's paternal/maternal DNA as well. It sems to me that many grandparents are not willing to accept this.They seem to think they have some sort of divine right to clutter up the delivery room, and launch themselves on the hapless young couple under the pretence of 'helping'.We used to be able to get on with a new born ourselves .... why are modern grandparents seemingly unable to do this.?

Penstemmon hit the nail right on the head here.... not all grannies are apple-cheeked dispensers of wise words, and home made cakes!

Bottom line...... we do not have 'rights' to our grandchildren..... what rights we have are granted by their parents who have all the 'rights' on their side- and quite rightly too IMO.

Exactly, absentgrandma. I said earlier that some people marry without making any effort to get on with the partner's extended family BUT equally there are those who never make the least effort to get on with their DC's partner.
If the relationship with both your own child and their partner is not good then you can't hope to have a good relationship with the grandchildren.
It takes work.
My first DH died and it would have been only too easy to cut his parents out, especially when I remarried, but we have always kept them part of the family. It isn't just a question of duty visits. With a small child you have to talk about them as in 'remember when Granny........' or 'Grandad would like that........' or 'let's send that picture to granny and grandad' or ' Grandad is on the phone - do you want to talk to him'. It is the constant mention that is important.

You do have to have let go and accept your DC's choices, even if they would not be your choices. You have to keep your advice to yourself- unless asked.
Your place is not in the delivery room or insisting you need to have them alone!

I don't think that grandparents have 'rights' , and they are not going to be any good if you did- resentment caused by trying to implement them is not going to make for a great relationship.

I have friends whose parents have not liked their choice of partner, thought them too young to know their own mind, ruined their lives etc- all really ridiculous when these friends have now been happily married for 40 yrs and are grandparents themselves !!

Wise words absentgrandma and Leticia.
I'm fortunate with having a good relationship with my son, daughter in law, grandson and daughter but have always been very careful not to overstep the mark. We don't have 'rights' and the relationship sometimes needs nurturing but at other times glides along smoothly.
It is their choices and their life and we fit in as best we can.
I would never even begin to try to elbow-in, but will help as and when I'm asked, and it seems to suit us all.
My DIL's parents live abroad, visiting them 3 or 4 times a year; sometimes we're invited up when they're here, sometimes not, no problem.

Soutra "life's not all ha ha ha, he he he*

Try the Beano.