ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Ankers. I respect your opinion but disagree. As the parent I would not allow my children near someone I cut off.
If they asked why I would explain that X had behaved badly and teated us nastily. And we do not want people to be mean to us.
As they got older and if they asked questions I would give age appropriate answers.
That is what I would do for my children, I agree with others who'd do the same. However I'd also say other people should do what they believe is best for their children.
Each to their own.

But it was the daughter's choice to marry into that gypsy community, her choice of husband. Unless she wasn't mentally capable of choosing her own partner, the man she picked is someone with qualities that SHE appreciated.

If a girl from another culture married into a "traditional British" family, and was accepted and welcomed as a daughter-in-law, and her own family then objected strongly and continued to denigrate the "traditional British" way of life for years afterwards, I think the girl's husband and his family would be justified in being annoyed, and saying so.

THAT is the other side to the story, and that is the kind of thiing that many posters have pointed out could be behind a lot of the estrangements. These posters are not trolls, not people wanting to hurt the estranged grandparents, just posters who suspect that some of the stories have become a bit blurred from years of repetition, and the grandparents' own part in them could have been a bit airbrushed in their minds.

Elegran

Marrying into the traditional British Way of Life doesn't usually include often living outside the law and a disregard for social norms.

I assume that if your daughter married into what amounts to a closed community, and subsequently cut you off, you would be equally as pragmatic in dealing with it.

From what I remember of the story as it was told, there was still contact at the start, and after a child was born, but it deteriorated after that, so there was potential for a reasonable relationship, the break came later. Perhaps the non-acceptance of her choisce to become a part of this second community proved too much and overcame the attachment of daughter to mother - the bond between husband and wife is stonger than any other, and so it should be.

I hope that I would have enough confidence in a daughter's own morality absorbed through her upbringing to believe that SHE would respect the law. Social norms differ from one group to another even within a community.

I like how this post has been a balanced and a discussion based on the general topic rather then a discussion based on one persons stories.
Some posters become to obsessed and take every comment as a personal assault.
I've read enough about the accounts to believ there is a very legitimate case for the other side of the story.

Thank you so much Fairydoll

Morality, strength of character etc etc can be completely overriden by families of closed communities. The power of attraction to a partner can draw a woman in, but fear and being controlled prevents them from leaving.

This is not my own personal opinion!

As I posted earlier - I have discussed the subject in some detail with a gypsy wife who was, in fact, desperate to leave her community along with three of her daughters. You may of course say this is a one off, but I found it deeply disturbing.

Elegran My D & I had no idea he was a gypsy when he first came into my D life. My D&GD lived with me & then he did for 6mths [unofficially]. He was perfectly ok and I thought I got on with him & his family fine. They all live in houses, so I had no initial sign, looking back I can see it clearly now, the way they acted, such a big family and always in and out of each others houses, always lots of visitor. I do remember my s.i.l saying about being a gypsy, but I thought he was joking I was told after, how he would go bare knuckle fighting with his cousins in the car park. His true personality was hidden from me and I only got to see the terrifying true person [& that of his mothers] after the 'cut out'!

So it all started OK, but some point things deteriorated so the original amicable relations were impossible? I also remember you saying that you warned your daughter about the gypsy way of life being different to what she had been brought up in (it must have been after you found out), so I assume she repeated that, and it was after that you were cut off? They are a very proud people, with hot tempers when they feel insulted.

My childhood, along with that of my siblings, was ' less than desirable' but none of us ever considered cutting off our parents. In later years we managed to enjoy a reasonable relationship with them both.

It's my belief that if we go through life cutting off,and discarding anything and everything that doesn't make us 'happy' then we lessen our chances of developing strategies that enable us to cope with what life throws at us from time to time.

Not suggesting for one moment that we should put up with abuse from anyone.

P.s this is our 'rest day' on our travels - which resume tomorrow - so have to log off now or there will be a divorce in the offing...

But it's an effective way of dealing with an issue.
My BIL has CO my MIL and she has a very very limited relationship with my children and her other sons due to her behaviour.

The child who's Cut her off has a great relationship with others. There was an on going issue. He CO her and now there's not a problem. Him and his family are much much happier.
Problem=solution.

The parents on this forum seem to believe that the AC live their lives as perpetual immature brats.
They must constantly throw tantrums and argue with everyone.
That's not my experience.
They have jobs, other relationships, happy home lives, friends, social lives etc
But the parnets can't deal with the fact that these are very capable, good functioning adults that live good lives without them.
That the AC can't possibly be happy
However when I've spoke to people online and irl it's the opposite.
They feel for the first time free. The anxiety and apprehension is gone. For many there are less arguments within their home and that they can't believe how much calmer they are as people.

I aagree that cutting someone out of your life is a drastic act, to be used when it is the only solution.

To go back to the gypsy SiL (sorry to be specific and go back to this, but it is an illustration only) A man who is proud of his minority community is pretty certain to feel sure that he and it HAVE been abused when it is criticised, and in that culture he is accustomed to taking action.

It needn't have been meant as abuse, just as stating the facts as seen, but it is how he feels about it that prompts his response - just as it is how some estranged grans feel about their situation which prompts them to believe that people are deliberately doing and saying things to hurt them, when what is happening is that people are saying things as they see them

Thank you for your post on Thursday Fairdoll. You hit the nail on the head; our ES is not his own person. It isn't only women who can end up in a relationship with a controlling partner, this happens to men too.

I'm a parent on this Forum Bibbity! I do not believe my AC is a *perpetual immature brat.' He is a kind, caring responsible man and a brilliant hands-on dad. However, his partner (in her 30's) behaves like a petulant teenager, even to the point of stamping her feet.
We have given up attempting to cope with her behaviour and have given her a wide berth for the sake of our sanity.

My son brings DGS to visit.

Or fairy doll are you just two very very different people whom clash and don't get on?
It's OK for her not to want to be around you. It's OK for her to not like you.

Elegran "just as it is how some estranged grans feel about their situation which prompts them to believe that people are deliberately doing and saying things to hurt them, when what is happening is that people are saying things as they see them."

^ This is the point. EGPs may be blinkered - being a bit upset and other posters are trying to show another view, the other side.

There are always 2 sides, there are always facets that can be looked at.

NOT all, but some EGPs are toxic because they smoke, drink, scream, swear and have done so with their own children during raising them up.

Those grown children are choosing better for their children when they simply CO toxic GPs.

Fairydoll2030 "However, his partner (in her 30's) behaves like a petulant teenager, even to the point of stamping her feet." "We have given up attempting to cope with her behaviour and have given her a wide berth for the sake of our sanity." "My son brings DGS to visit."

May I know what the problem is? You dislike ds partner, you don't have to visit her, you visit ds and dgs without her, correct? What is it you desire?

It seems you made a choice and are avoiding ds's partner?

Smileless2012 "You hit the nail on the head; our ES is not his own person. It isn't only women who can end up in a relationship with a controlling partner, this happens to men too."

Men do marry bad partners. As do women.

When the man has had enough, doesn't like what he's getting out of the relationship, he divorces.

If people stay in a relationship, though others can't fathom "why" there is a reason, mums and dads (GPs) usually look at the "why" wrongly.

Norah. If I knew what the problem was, I would do my best to solve it. - believe me.

My son thinks it's because she has low self esteem. Any conversation is difficult as she frequently reads a different meaning into what is said as an innocent remark.
One example: I once said of DGS '..he's developing into a lovely litte personality.' It was a compliment to him at 18 months. She took offence and snapped that '' He has always had a personality!' There was little,point in responding to that as it,would make matters worse.

She has told many lies to our DS about us, even saying that I had witheld DGS in the house and refused to let him out, when the fact was that she had come to collect him and was in a filthy mood. He was engrossed in playing and wouldn't come to the front door - which was wide open - and she refused to come in the house. Her interpretation of the scenario was that I had virtually kidnapped him. This was not long after I had come out of hospital after suffering a life threatening illness. She can throw a tantrum at the drop of a hat. The last straw was when she sent a very insulting email to DH and me, accusing us of causing rows between DS and her. The reason for the rows was that DS was fully aware that we were not even capable of doing the things we were accused of, and would not accept her wild accusations. Frankly, she could start a war in a room by herself. I guess the positive is that now we don't see her, she cannot accuse us of anything and therefore some peace has been restored to their household. In recent months she has made 'overtures' to us via DS but we are maintaining a low profile. It could all kick off again. Do you blame me?

I keep finding commas where there shouldn't be any!

Divorce is often not an option some men want to pursue. It's all too black and white to suggest that. A man can lose property that he may have worked hard for and owned for years prior to marriage, and he will subsequently have to try and maintain two households.

Even with a court order , access to the children can still be made difficult if the ex wants to make it so.

A family member went through all this. It ruined him financially and it's taken him many years to get back on his feet.

My son would be devastated if he could not have his son with him all the time. Being a part time dad would not be acceptable.

In the end you have to decide which is the lesser of the two evils. Divorce or 'putting up with it.'

I suspect, as well, a lot of people hang on in there hoping things(their partner) will change.

Fairydoll2030 "I guess the positive is that now we don't see her, she cannot accuse us of anything and therefore some peace has been restored to their household. In recent months she has made 'overtures' to us via DS but we are maintaining a low profile. It could all kick off again. Do you blame me?"

No I don't blame you. I never said I blamed anyone posting.

I just threw out possibilities. Not all GPs have explored all options.

Especially, newly estranged GPs need help discerning what may be issues.

What do you perceive as a problem, now? You visit ds and dgs? Everything is good?

DS and DGS visit us. To her credit, DS' partner has never made it difficult
This confirms to us that we are not the dreadful people she made us out to be, but mud sticks and it hurt at the time.

DS says she realises that she has over reacted (to put it mildly) etc in the past but she never apologises.

We have had a peaceful existence for almost 2 years. I don't know that I want to risk that.