I couldn't believe my ears .....

100 years ago people went around shaking with righteous indignation at fallen women and sexual improprieties, in the 60's drugs, mini skirts and the hair length of young men caused a lot of comment, now we have the fatties and tattooed to look down on and we elevate ourselves by despising the racists because we consider ourselves to be superior and without prejudice.

It is all a social construct and we are all just acting out what are the mores of our times, and filling time before we fill our coffins.

Whatever view you take, there is no lack on prejudice and there are merits on each side of every argument. For good or ill we have a lot more unmarried mothers than we used to (happy and not) we have a drug epidemic, half a nation of fatties and as many tattooed. Racists are just people that others define as such, due to lacking the same experience that causes the difference of opinion.

There really is very little moral high ground only human nature and all its frailties.

Much of what is going on today with Brexit is similar to the late 1930's and latterly over the ERM and then whether Britain should join the EURO. Only this time the proletariat are actively involved. Fear of the unknown can have a devastating effect on people.

Before you speak out FIRST be sure who THEY are?

As Paster Martin Niemoller wrote in his poem.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Immigration and racism are not the same. I worry about the number of people in the country. Nothing to do with their race, colour or religion. In recent years our small local town has lost a garage (15 houses) greengrocer (12 houses) butcher (10 houses). We live in a very rural area with very few immigrants but our local hospital wouldn't survive without staff from all over the world and with all the new houses and the sheer number of people we will need more qualified and skilled people from wherever they come from to care for us. I'm not sure how many care homes could survive without foreign staff. Maybe a different argument, but there is too much confusion between being anti more immigration and being racist.

Meant 'intelligent enough' to disregard in line three.

Jaycee has given the perfect reply- thanks.

I absolutely agree with Sunseeker. I also read the Daily Mail, but I am not a 'Daily Mail Reader'. I read it because, when you really go into it, a few (albeit very few) articles are well-balanced and rational. The rest, I am intelligent to disregard. I KNOW they are against immigration and I am sensible enough to use their views as the 'other side' when formulating my own.
I do get fed up with people assuming I'm racist and against just about everything because I read the Mail. I'm not and I do criticise it often, but that only serves to cement my own views. So, their irrationality, hopefully, makes me less irrational. Our reasons for having it in our house are pragmatic - it's easy to pick up and put down, is a tabloid, so you don't have to sit and 'read the paper' as such. That's all we want from a daily paper. We formulate our own views, using our own intelligence, experience and the good old interweb.

I have cousins who have very bigoted views about people on benefit (who get everything they want apparently) and about refugees. I used to just try to correct them with facts conversationally (like - yes they can be refugees and have smartphones, being a refugee is nothing to do with poverty) but the last time I went I had a bad head cold and was a bit impatient and had one benefit bash too many. I said 'you really must stop reading the Sun' (which they get delivered). I then realised I had better cut the visit short before I said something worse.
I haven't heard from them since which is a shame as they can be good company but they never seemed to pick up on the fact that I found it unpleasant.
Some newspapers do seem to exist only to push an extreme right wing agenda and I don't think it unreasonable to judge people by their choice unless they buy several. They are helping to promote those views by funding them.
I will be voting out and I think there are cons as well as pros to immigration but racism and bigotry is more than that.
People are entitled to their own opinions and others are entitled to criticise those opinions.

granjura everybody should read a paper with political views they disagree with. It will help them understand those people who have different political views to their own.

Since the Indie closed there is not a single national paper being published in England that does not have political views which I profoundly disagree with. However all of them have columnists, special sections, general news reports that make excellent reading regardless of their political leanings.

I enjoy reading the Daily Mail. Nothing wakes me up faster in the morning than a good rant about something written in that paper. Completely sets me up for the day. On the other hand nothing ruins my day faster than reading a humourless self righteous rant by a champagne socialist published in the Guardian

A few years ago now I was on a bus in M town in Cheshire when going to pick my car up from a service.
We passed a building site. Someone said "Oh I wonder what that will be" and some obnoxious red necked guy said, "I know it's going to be a Mosque, I have seen the plans."

This git was purely stirring up racism. The town is very white and the few Asians seen were workers at a big pharmaceutical company or the local hospital doctors.

Some people enjoy spreading such malicious rumours. The site finished up being a care home. Some saddoes enjoy stirring up controversy. You could have been in serious trouble for doing that in the war
The moral is do not believe any rumours without checking the facts.

Definitely- they did invite themselves last year and the year before - and hopefully they won't again as he is 90 now- but it would be more difficult to say 'no'. Fingers crossed.

granjura I think you're doing the right thing! those relatives from the US , perhaps pay a quick visit if you are there, but not stay with them.

Or do you just mean the minor point about which newspaper people read?

Elainel does your post mean you think we should go along with racist opinions when they are put to us? Where are these "judgemental and bigoted" views you have read on this thread?

My neighbour is the kindest of people (French) and so is her husband (Swiss) but the vitriol that comes out of their mouth re immigrants is mind-blowing. We never challenge, and quietly try to say things that may make them re-think - but we will never change their mind- so we just have to accept this- and their friendship- as it is.

roses- we have learnt to tread carefully and not challenge or argue with those relatives and neighbours- we avoid discussing politics with them- but at times they just go on and insist on discussing - and we quietly say we disagree and why, and leave it. As you say, not worth it to upset the family, especially as we know it won't change their minds, at all.

With those Tea Party relatives from the USA (they have moved to an all white gated community...) - we used to get on so well, and they are lovely people... to us and their kin- but those comments above were just too much to bear- both on their last visit to the UK with us and last year here. No ding dong either- what is the point- we firmly said we thought it was wrong and bizarre to say those things- and will not fall out- but will not ever have them as guests or go over as guests. Our family in the USA has been truly divided by their racist and extreme comments- sad.

granjura rosesarered

I don't know how far you push it with relatives or even strangers about challenging them. I've met many of both who are good-natured but clearly have racist (or other) views diametrically opposed to mine. I usually try to engage and find out why they're thinking what they're thinking and argue back but not ad hominem. I have surrendered contacts when it's clearly not good. I also read the Times (online) DM (ditto) but also try to catch up with Grauniad. It's always an eyeopener comparing the values - and the comments online.

granjura if that was a relative of yours ( who said that rubbish) then you either have to be diplomatic ( if you have to see them again) or if you don't care, then say what you think back to them.Have never seen Fox news so can't comment on it.Although it may be annoying, irritating, galling even, to listen to bigoted comments ( and just plain idiotic ones) we all have to be careful with relatives and friends.Nothing to stop you saying that you can't agree with it, but not worth a ding-dong.

Well, what do you say about FoxNews? And do the people who watch FoxNews, exclusively, do so because it represents their views? If the views are racist - then what does it make them?

Bigoted indeed.

Like:

'never thought I'd have to live under a Moslem President with false ID- and anyhow he is an Al-Quaida plant, didn't you know' - we tried to laugh it off, but he would have none of it. 'You bet I believe it- and you need to watch FoxNews- the only ones to tell the truth- your BBC is soooo biased'.

Good post Elainel
Here we go again with smug remarks about DM readers.We have been down this road before many times.
To the OP, I would not fall out with your sister over her views, it's really not worth it.Families have to be together on so many occasions.

Some people on this thread are expressing very bigoted and judgemental views towards other people. Fortunately in the UK we are allowed our own opinions and allowed freedom of expression. Just because people have different views and opinions to us or read and watch different programmes does not mean they are wrong and you are right. There will be a bit of both!

(they are cousins- 2nd generation Swiss and 3rd generation Italian- in their 80s - she insisted on moving from their wonderful house in California when 'I just didn't even know what the vegetables at the supermarket were'. Personally I loved the new produce at Leicester market...

Great sunseeker, if you read other and very different papers too- do you?

jingl, I agree- but its hard. So many of our family and neihgbours hold very different views, and from very different angles (from Tory with a massive C, to the Swiss SVP/UDC adn the French FN, to the Tea Party in the USA. With the latter, despite them being so kind to us and lovely people otherwise- they so over stepped the mark with sheer and extreme racism shown to the Obamas, and their support of Donald Trump - we haven't fallen out- but they won't be invited again, and we won't visit either. Spending many days with them spouting that stuff is just unbearable. Now they only watch FoxNews - I wonder if that reflects their views??? just as some papers do.

People do get very worked up about the immigration side of the referendum. Some people feel frightened and overwhelmed by the number of immigrants and other cultures they see in some parts of the country. I think all you can do is try to put your views as carefully, but firmly, as you can. Try not to fall out with her over it. It's not worth a family split.

I choose to read newspapers which don't reflect my views because I like to see all sides of an argument.

Glad to hear that sunseeker- but I have to say I just don't get this. Why would someone wish to read a paper, day in, day out- which do not reflect their views- racists or non-racist or otherwise.

When I am in a coffe shop I always pick up the DM to see if my views about the paper are somehow distorted or erroneous - in vain. How do you feel about The Sun - who buys it?