To hav3 had enough of Harvey Weinstein on the radio

Don’t try your bullying tactics with me, it won’t work. And I’ve no intention of justifying my comments, nor do I need to. I’m not answerable to you despite you thinking you are entitled to an answer judging by your hectoring tone.

I won’t be leaving the debate, should it continue, but I will be responding only to those I consider worthy of debating with - and that includes those who disagree with me but are able to put forward their views in a rational and intelligent manner.

I actually agree many of the points points you raised Sue and Iam64, but feel there is also more to this issue than the victimisation of women and how they are allowing themselves to be portrayed.

So if we accept that women are not going to speak out for whatever reason what is the future to hold? Men who will continue to abuse and serially assault women until something happens to out them and then huge numbers reveal historic abuse? If so the future is very dark. We can educate young men and boys but it will take a long time and in the meantime the whole culture of abuse will continue. Arguably if ML hadn't spoken/been outed (and she could have denied it) Clinton would have gone on to abuse other interns and might still be doing so.

Emma Thompson talks about her mother asking if men were "pestering" them. There was no legislation then to do anything, the accepted response was to stay away from them. It is sad, and in my opinion unacceptable, that although there is legislation now, and public opinion has changed women are still unwilling to speak out and I don't accept that all were unable to do so because of trauma, many haven't done so because it suited their career aspirations to keep quiet. They may be speaking out now for the same reasons.

I do hate people who cut and paste bits of someone's post and isolate them. Frankly I can't be arsed. But there is a sustained idea in some posts that Weinstein is guilty. He may well be. But trial by media is never a good thing.

I suspect between the differences here, we all agree that the behaviour alleged by the now over 30 women is totally unacceptable.
The issue for me is a culture in which many men behaved like HW and when women complained, they were told "oh it's just Harvey". That culture dominated La La Land, I don't feel I can sneer at those women on the basis as some say, that it suited their career aspirations to keep quiet. It's not so simple is it - these women wanted to work in the film industry. The message they learned very early was that sexual harassment and even assault was widespread.

Rape trials are at a much lower level than rape allegations. Guilty findings at rape trials are low as well. I do not believe its because rape is rare and false allegations widespread. Any group of close friends will acknowledge incidents of sexual assault or harassment - male friends who were at boarding schools have horror stories. Do we blame those men for not speaking out now, for wanting to get on with their lives without their abuse experience defining them. Of course we don't. You simply can't put responsibility on the victim/survivor for the fact their abuser may have gone on to abuse others. The damage caused to children or adults who are told they must go to court because otherwise their alleged abuser will go on to abuse can't be measured.

Speaking out about sexual assault or harassment is not easy. False allegations happen but they're much less common than genuine allegations. No one is suggesting trial be media is a good thing. It's staggering to see so much information reported in the press and on tv/radio when police investigations are beginning. However, there seems little doubt that the allegations against HW are the tip of a very large ice berg. Will it lead to culture change in the entertainment industry, if so can we live in hope that will permeate into our ordinary lives and that our boys and girls will be safer from abuse and exploitation. We live in hope

I think what we can all agree on trisher and Im64 is that it is now much more likely that women (and others) will be encouraged to speak out now and feel empowered to do so.

It isn't "sneering" to say it suited their career aspirations, it is facing facts. One of the reasons this culture thrives is because women are vying with other women to be the star of the moment and men have used this to their advantage.

So if we accept that women are not going to speak out for whatever reason what is the future to hold?

I would have thought the best thing to do to deal with this would be to make it more possible for them to speak out. I cannot believe this is done by throwing some of the comments you (and others) have made at those who do manage to speak out placing the blame on the shoulders of exploited and sexually harassed as you appear to be doing Trisher.

We can educate young men and boys but it will take a long time and in the meantime the whole culture of abuse will continue.

There is a Chinese proverb that says "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" In other words, just because you did not do something when you should have done it that should not stop you doing it now. I think this also has to be a two pronged attack on the current culture which explains that the idea of transactional sex does not make it legal nor does the idea of coercive sex.

Man, and the vast majority of people who are breaking the law are men, must be shown that this is what they are doing and women need it reinforcing that this is not acceptable to the wider society. It is certainly not helpful to re-abuse women because they cannot stand up in the full glare of the media and the wicked things that said to them.

There is no quick fix but making that an excuse for not beginning is not going to get us anywhere.

But I am saying these women should have been able to speak out GGMK2 you seem to be saying that they couldn't and that they must be understood because they couldn't and that they shouldn't be questioned. In other words you are painting a picture of women as perpetual and inevitable victims. It isn't re-abusing them to question their motives. It is looking at a whole culture and asking what can be done. We begin by empowering women not by infantilising them.

I think what we can all agree on trisher and Im64 is that it is now much more likely that women (and others) will be encouraged to speak out now and feel empowered to do so.

Not all Anya; you are not speaking for me. Your comment is too superficial for that.

Some will feel more empowered but the comments AGAINST the women who have spoken out that have been made on here, and the way they have been painted, is a drop in the ocean. The press and other social media has gone much further and some who are abused from here on in will now feel they cannot speak out because of the comments that have been made which deliberately paint the abused as at least partly in the wrong.

You would have thought, when we realised that very young women could not consent to prostitution in the recent cases over here, that we would also realise that women are not to blame for their own abuse generally - not continue finding ways in which we could transfer some of the blame to them.

you seem to be saying that they couldn't and that they must be understood because they couldn't and that they shouldn't be questioned.

So where is the truth in your reflection of what I have said trisher?

I have said that some people can, some people can't but may be able to with support and some people will never be in a position to speak out. I haven't even mentioned being questioned nor have I said that "these women" couldn't speak out. It will be personal to each woman.

I am certainly not "painting a picture of women as perpetual and inevitable victims". If they feel they were victims that belongs to them and they need help to overcome it - some may never be able to do so and I am certainly not going to blame them for that.

I cannot re-abuse them. What you suggest, which seems to be taking away their choice about how they deal with their own trauma, would indeed be infantilising them. I favour support to allow them to do what they can and what they choose to do. You seem to be putting forward a parental role of telling them what they MUST do.

Correct trisher these women should have felt able to speak out. There were obviously reasons why they didn’t at the time and now reasons why they now feel differently and possibly empowered to take that step.

It isn't "sneering" to say it suited their career aspirations, it is facing facts. One of the reasons this culture thrives is because women are vying with other women to be the star of the moment and men have used this to their advantage.

I have to agree trisher.

We have all heard of the 'casting couch'. It's horrible to imagine a woman has to be willing to cosy up to film makers/directors in order to get a break but it's been the way in Hollywood for years. It doesn't make it right but in the past women have undoubtedly used their feminine wiles to progress with rich and powerful men. It happens in many scenarios. I scorn those men and I scorn those women but it has been commonplace and one imagines consensual. Sad but true.

As for speaking out after abuse, (sexual or other forms of abuse) I think that is often easier aid than done. As a strong woman I found it incredibly hard to admit to others the abuses that happened to me. I had to protect my career, my reputation, my family and my name. Mud sticks, people remember and yes, I am from a generation brought up not to 'air my dirty laundry in public'.

The other side of the coin is that with the advent of social media some people welcome publicity. It's easy to make false allegations, seek revenge and ruin someone's life. Haven't most of us thought as yet more and more people come forward with allegations against HW that there might be a bit of band-wagon jumping going on, for all sorts of reasons?

Every single claim might be a genuine one. Who knows? But there has to remain some doubt and every case has to be investigated because that is only right and fair.

The water is extremely murky.

Given that HW has admitted his shortcomings and that the Academy Awards and even his own brother have spoken against him, I think whether or not abuse has taken place is pretty clear cut, trial by jury or not.

I really don't see that the possibility some women may have lodged false complaints against him means that other complaints are baseless.

As for career aspirations leading men to take advantage - isn't that the crux of the matter? Men shouldn't be taking advantage. It wouldn't be acceptable in other careers, say law, or politics or teaching so why are women wanting acting careers being singled out? To me, it's almost like we're back in the 17thC when actresses were likened to whores.

By the way, Trisher, ML did originally deny it. It was the existence of the tapes that meant she could no longer keep up that pretence.

Actually such men are prominent in many professions and areas of life, but women in those sectors do not accept their behaviour.
The idea that only Hollywood has such men is wrong. That there has been and remains a long standing culture there is true. And it isn't simply a question of saying men take advantage, there are women who regard trading sexual favours for career advancement as fully acceptable.
No-one has said the complaints are baseless just that judgement should be reserved and we prefer to have proper investigations and fair trials.
And actually many actresses in the 17th C were whores, as were many milliners, dressmakers and waitresses in the 19th C. It was simply a way of making ends meet.

Enlightened times, unenlightened times.

The casting couch probably flourished in the 40s, 50s and 60s before we talked more about sex equality and exploitation.

I conclude that HW was a chancer, a predator and an arrogant fool, thinking his position, power and wealth gave him carte blanche to sexually abuse women. He banked on his lewd behaviour remaining a secret, as do so many who maltreat others.

It is quite amazing that something like this has been shrouded in secrecy for so long.

Correct trisher these women should have felt able to speak out. There were obviously reasons why they didn’t at the time and now reasons why they now feel differently and possibly empowered to take that step.

Interesting Anya. That is exactly what several of us have been saying for pages and exactly the opposite of what trisher has been saying. She seemed happy to attack those who couldn't, for whatever reason, speak out.

Does anyone here know of a woman (or a man) who has traded sexual favours to further their career? I don't . I know women in the professions, law, medicine, academia, who have been sexually propositioned and harassed and not gone along with it but been left feeling somehow responsible for the fact the man involved thought he could make such an approach - was I giving out the wrong signals they may ask.

As I said earlier up thread, I know many women, myself included who have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. Marital rape is relatively recently a crime. When this was brought in, a friend who works in criminal justice commented that she thought rape by someone you knew well, or had a previous sexual relationship with wasn't as damaging or as bad as stranger rape. Total nonsense of course.

I'm unhappy with the notion that women vie with other women to be star of the moment and men use that to their advantage. Men are also competitive in their workplace and in life generally. Actors vie with each other for roles that will further their careers. Barristers are keen to take on cases, even for pro bono, if the case if very interesting and may be reported. People often compete within the workplace for a promotion. How can the so called 'casting couch' be accepted by some posters here as some kind of equal opportunities basis for being given a sought after role.

If a woman wants to sell her body for sex, charging whatever she thinks acceptable Iam64 shouldn't she be permitted to do so? I'm not saying I approve of it, but it is her body. It isn't accepting something to acknowledge it exists and some women choose to use it.

Exactly, Trisher. It happens in many and maybe all professions but no one says of the affected women there that they were furthering their careers by doing so. That's only for the acting profession, it seems.

Yes, many female actresses etc were prostitutes. Not all, but they were still tarred by the same brush. There were very few professions open to women so anyone trying to break out of the norms risked being labelled as a whore/prostitute.

trisher, I'm familiar with the argument and try not to be judgemental in saying I'm very uncomfortable with it. My (wide) experience of women who sold their bodies is that it never ended well. It may be that the women I knew who did this started out very damaged but I do know some who could never be described as that, until their workplace ensured they were.
I also feel that many women who "choose" that are in fact limited in their choices. Nope I'm not saying all women are victims, all men are predators - I'm saying that using sex to earn a living, to promote one's career, rarely leaves the individual feeling good about themselves. That seems equally to apply to all the women coming forward currently about HW, as well as the adults abused as children by men in the entertainment industry. Judy Garland would be one, as it seems was Shirley Temple. It's gross to me, to imagine that men would see that as ok sexual behaviour and that the adult men and women around them wouldn't be shouting from the hill tops. But, we all know life isn't as straightforward as we'd like it to be.

Perhaps the problem is that society views such use as unacceptable Iam64 and this causes the damage, rather than the actual choice As we don't know how many women may have used sex to further their career it's very hard to make any judgement.
Child abuse in any sector is totally unacceptable so I have no idea why you raised this.

Are women who exchanged sexual favours for promotion or a job going to admit it? I can't recall any woman saying she married for money or a title but they do

I am sorry but this thread has really reached rock bottom for me. I may rejoin, but please don't think that my not posting for the time being means I in anyway agree with the attack some seem to need to make on other women.

How is it attacking women to discuss them choosing to sell their body for sex? If you think it is attacking them it must be because you disapprove of their choice. It may not be a wise choice but if it is taken freely and without any pressure shouldn't they be free to choose for themselves?

And how many do you think make it freely and without pressure trisher?

Actually I wasn't even thinking about what had been said about that. Please just get on with whatever you want to and leave me out of your posts.

Try reading what has already been said- no one knows.