To hav3 had enough of Harvey Weinstein on the radio

Of course people give away sex without pressure, for their own reasons. We all do. Or I do for my pleasure with my husband. What has giving away sex to do with the predator HW?

Good point Norah, the predator HW is responsible for his behaviour, not the women on the receiving end of it.

I've already referred to why the issue of child sexual exploitation is relevant to discussions of predatory individuals.

The reason that the majority of sexual assault cases are either never prosecuted or fail to get a guilty verdict is usually because it is felt that there isn't powerful enough evidence and the alleged victim's account can be seriously undermined. Generally speaking, people do not have sex in public and therefore there must be overwhelmingly compelling evidence for a guilty verdict to be returned.

If a Hollywood actress decided to make an allegation of sexual assault or harassment, presumably she would put herself at risk of being sued for slander. If she lost the case, she would be persona non grata, branded a liar and undoubtedly her career would be over. To make such an allegation, as Ashley Judd did, was therefore a huge risk and one that many women would be too afraid to take, particularly if they had, in the past, made a tentative complaint to senior figures in the industry, or the police, and had been rebuffed.

There may well have been some women who did not object to this man's attentions or who willingly had sex with him, but if there were any women who experienced any sort of sexual harassment or assault and who felt frightened and intimidated by this man - or any other powerful man in the film industry - a crime had been committed against them and the fact that other women might have consented is totally irrelevant.

I can’t find anything to disagree with in your post Eloethan it seems a fair summing up of the situation.

Thanks Eloethan.

As always, such a good summary. Thanks Eloethan.

It's been mentioned back on various posts why did the women meet HW in hotel rooms. This seems to be a fairly standard practice in the film industry. Hotels are used for interviews and more often that not there will be a coterie of assistants present. The young inexperienced ingenue, as they often were, lets not forget that, did not go to these meetings with the expectation of having to provide quid pro quo sexual services. No doubt they would be lulled into a false sense of security by the assistant or assistants milling around, who at some stage down the line just melted away. Having read much of the same thing it all came across as quite insidious and lets not forget in keeping with the Hollywood ideal some of these women were tiny and were easily overpowered by the sheer bulk that is HW. There was an interview in the Sunday Times yesterday in which actress, Lysette Anthony, who's career was ascending in the late '80s, but didn't go on to reach A lister status, described how she was actually raped by HW and at the time just buried the experience.

Terri, she was allegedly raped .

Seems this behaviour is common in the music industry , and happens in the army and police force too.

Annie - I concede should have said "allegedly"

All very unpleasant isn't it Terri

This kind of behaviour happens in the world not just in the music industry, the army and the police force. It's so difficult for victims to speak out - as this thread shows.

Yes Iam, I think everyone here who has experienced unwanted advanances are aware it happens in the world

Great when a thread can move on to some sort of consensus.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3061617-I-think-the-golden-rule-for-men-should-be?trending=1

My DDs find this to be the answer to much.

www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/harvey-weinstein-big-bang-theory-094800960.html

Loved the comments from Mayem Bailik (hope I've spelt that properly) and her parents summed it up.
"I always made conservative choices as a young actress, largely informed by my first-generation American parents who were highly skeptical of this industry in general — “This business will use you up and throw you away like a snotty tissue!”— and of its men in particular: “They only want one thing.” My mom didn’t let me wear makeup or get manicures. She encouraged me to be myself in audition rooms, and I followed my mother’s strong example to not put up with anyone calling me “baby” or demanding hugs on set."
She has been accused of victim blaming but I think she just sees things very clearly. It isn't excusing the men just explaining how she felt she needed to protect herself.

I am beginning to think that it isn't only men who don't understand consent!

Trisher, please watch this video - it shows what consent is and what it isn't. It does not mention what someone is wearing; it doesn't mention if you wear make-up; it doesn't mention of you have manicures. It does say that the responsibility lies with understanding what consent is.

Having sex with someone - or sexually harassing someone who has not freely GIVEN consent is illegal. If you do this you are breaking the law. If you do this with someone who someone who is provocatively dressed, wears make-up, or has manicures, you have STILL broken the law. THEY have done nothing wrong.

If you follow your path to it's natural conclusion trisher, you will put all women in burkas on the grounds that men cannot be expected to obey the law. Why should we conclude that? Why do you think they are so infantile that they cannot be held to account for what is, quite clearly, THE LAW. Stop making excuses for men for heavens sake or they will happily continue raping women and saying it is their victims fault - because you are enabling them to do just that.

Tea and Consent

someone who

Oh GGMK2 you are on your high horse aren't you. I fully understand what consent is and I fully support women wearing and doing what they please. However when you have an industry which exploits women for their looks, judges women on their appearance and ranks women for their sex appeal you also have to warn women that if they buy into this concept they may be damaged. That damage may take the form of a loss of self confidence, it may result in them submitting to surgery or it may result in them putting themselves in harms way. This doesn't mean rape is justified, this doesn't mean assault should be ignored, this doesn't mean any sort of harm shouldn't be dealt with. It does mean that women have to be adults and recognise how the people (and they are mostly but not exclusively men) who run the industry will treat them if they allow them to do so.
Mayem Bailik is a woman who was involved in the industry as a child who has had success both then and now as an adult. She is entitled to her opinion and she is a powerful voice and a role model for other actresses. Understanding that "No" always means "No" isn't really much consolation to a rape victim. Teaching young actresses that they will be safer if they modify their behaviour at least offers them some protection. But I suppose if you are only concerned in scoring points and pretending to be more informed than anyone else the actual safety of these women doesn't really concern you.

I am not on my 'high horse' trisher, I am angry. I am a women and I totally resent you undermining everything we have achieved toward being treated as equal.

Your comments leave every woman vulnerable and cannot tell you what I think of other women who do that.

I'd have thought it better if miscreant men modified their behaviour. It seems to me that it's always women who are having to budge up to accommodate others.

I know people on here don't always like links but this from the BBC spoke to me today. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41614720

Mayem Bailik is entitled to her opinion, which has been roundly criticised for victim blaming.
There is something unutterably smug about the notion that if bring our daughters up to avoid make up and manicures and tell them that if they work in Hollywood men will all be after only one thing - that somehow we've solved the problem of predatory men.
Teaching young women that if they modify their behaviour they will be safer doesn't always work does it. So many young women assaulted and victimised despite the fact they'd modified their behaviour and taken safe steps.
The issue is the abusive men, the men who seem to think they'r entitled to take what they want whenever they want it. I was criticised earlier on this thread, unfairly in my view, accused of suggesting all men are potential rapists or child abusers. Nothing could be further from my own work or life experience.
I heard Maggie Oliver the former GMP detective involved in the GMP and Rochdale cse cases interviewed on Radio 5 earlier. She made the comparison with the girls she supported being accused of responsibility for their own abuse, with the same being said of young actors.
Thanks for the link SueDonim, it spoke to me as well

Thanks from me for the link too Sue. It tells a sad story and I am shocked to here people on here endorse the culture of paranoia instead of putting the responsibility where it lies - with anyone who chooses to be a predator.

Iam I am so sad that we seem to still defer to the actions of men. I know some wonderful men - including my son. When I brought him up he understood that he is not entitled to whatever he chooses to take from a women. That is surely what women must do. Not teach our girls to fear the world. I do not understand why people think it is okay to criticise and blame the victims; it is perverse.

All this concentration by a few on the behavior of women. As I said, the more we do this the less safe we will actually be - but you are right, it does give those who write such things the opportunity to be smug.

Thank you for reporting what Maggie Oliver said. Let's face it, she knows the actuality of the situation.

GGMk2. I am not in favour of teaching women to fear the world. However if a girl is about to have a sexual relationship I would advocate giving her contraceptive advice and in my opinion a warning about predatory men if a girl is fixed on working in the film industry is just as important.
This isn't about women in general. I have often posted about women's right to live as they wish. I live in a city where girls and women have lifestyles that many have criticised. I think they have a right to live as they choose. But if I had a daughter who wanted to be a lion tamer I would want her to have the best advice and the best training to survive. I wouldn't want to send her into the ring thinking tigers were something like pussy cats.
I don't see how you have brought up your son has anything to do with this unless he is a producer in the film industry.
The link was interesting SueDonim but I thought a bit inadequate. Personally I have very strong boundaries and personal space issues and I have met quite a few women who have tried to give me unwanted hugs when we met. fortunately I think they soon realised my boundaries. It also isn't just men I avoid on public transport there are quite a few strange people I prefer not to sit near and I always try to stay away from groups of teenagers of both sexes.

Then GG, you are placing blame on the mothers for not teaching their sons how to respect women?