To think women are more than just wives, mothers and grandmothers.

Well I think OP hinted at it (Monday 19.21) so I thought I might risk it.
As I see it the premise of this thread is that OP needs to defend herself from being defined as just a mother etc

In Logic it is called the Straw man Fallacy when, in debate or argument, you create the illusion of refuting an argument which has not actually been presented. Sometimes also referred to as an Aunt Sally after the pub game!

Granny 23. I would like to thank you for inspiring me to emulate your Christmas project. It has become a very large part of my life and given me the opportunity to contribute to my community. My family are very proud of me and in this second year they are helping in various ways, patricularly my DH. My DGS will be helping on the stall. I love the way it has become a family project and i am having lots of fun
None of this would have happened without the help and advice from Granny 23. So you are far more than a carer! Thank you. ???

MawBroon Do you really think
*What can be more important to the continuance of human life on Earth and to society than the birth of each successive generation and the responsible upbringing of our citizens?
If all that mattered was our professional lives then we would surely be happy to be euthanased instead of a leaving do (and think what THAT would save the country’s finances !)*
The ultimate application of this idea is that anyone who hasn't produced children has a wasted life. Just think of the number of people this would include, and the works of art and science that apparently mean nothing unless you have bred.
For a Straw Man Fallacy it has produced a great many comments so it obviouslty rings a bell with some women. Perhaps as has always been the case you have chosen not to listen to those voices, but to simply dismiss them.

Trisherread my words.

Nowhere have I said that procreation is ALL that matters.
Art, literature, philosophy music- yes our lives would be infinitely poorer but without the continuation of the species (to take the argument to its logical conclusion) that would cease to exist too.
The fact that many members have expressed agreement with you does not validate the assumption that I was arguing the opposite. The Straw Man fallacy is used all too readily in oratory to whip up opposition to imaginary ills. Take a lesson from history.
You cannot extrapolate from what I say to put words in my mouth and say that I think that anyone who has not had children has had a wasted life.
Adolescent high school debates used to sometimes to go down that road and we would be pulled up short.

Oh and if I say something, I mean it.

As for putting words into people's mouths. Nowhere have I said that being a mother isn't important, or that it doesn't matter. I have simply said that it isn't ALL women are. If you choose to think that is devaluing motherhood that is just your opinion. Even if we look at it on a time basis, raising children takes perhaps 20-30years of someone's life. Are we then to assume the rest is wasted or of less importance?
Having accused me of creating a Straw Man Argument and now of adolescent debate perhaps you should look more carefully at my original post and read what I actually said.
As for the Seven ages of Woman- presumably you regard childless woman as having less than the rest of us because there are 2 stages they certainly don't achieve.
It's never a good idea to try to emuate Shakespeare.

Fortunately I have never tried to ”emuate” (sic) Shakespeare but hey, when a person is down, good time to go for the jugular?

Surely everyone knows that women aren't baby making machines? It was a lovely poem - if it doesn't float your boat then don't read it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42078457
Labour MP Angela Rayner has just become a grandmother at 37 and attributes her success in life to becoming a mother at 16.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Actually YOU started the debate prompted it seemed to be saying by a reflective poem I wrote on Paw’s recent death (which everybody else seems to have been aware of)
Not crying “Poor me” just putting the record straight before more opinion was whipped up as a very clear criticism which was expressed of my sentiments.

I started a thread MawBroonwhich you chose to post on. I didn't openly criticise anything. I simply stated something I believe to be true. No criticism of any 'sentiments'.

MawBroon I have no idea why you are 'down'.
really?

Really strange as it may seem I do have other things to do and don't monitor the lives of anyone on GN. Sorry if I should but I don't.

I can't mention another thread because it isn't allowed but being a woman is about more than marrying and having children I think. If you find something about that I haven't said anything

“A nod is as good as a wink to a blind man.”

Without this snide reference I might have felt able to agree with much of what you and others are saying, indeed just as one side of the coin is that a man is more than his career we now have the obverse applying to women
Just what however, other than pats on the back, did you hope to achieve by rubbishing my sincere sentiments?

So what you are arguing aginst is my criticism of your poem, not as you originally claimed my post. I was polite enough not to openly criticise anything you have written but the concept behind it. If you feel this is rubbishing your sentiments I am sorry you feel that way. However the discussion on this thread has been mostly accelarated by you.
I do think if you want to publish poetry even if only on this forum you should be prepared to accept criticism.

MawBroon. In my opinion, when a person writes from the heart, it doesn't need analysis.

I have no illusions - and I make no pretensions to be one if Gray’s “mute inglorious Miltons” btut literary criticism is one thing, starting a whole thread to pick holes, another. Oh and while as a mum and gran I would not wish to make personal remarks, it is accelerated (as one teacher to another)

I had no idea it was to do with a poem or another thread, but I did think it was an interesting idea to discuss.

It wasn't really to do with the poem more perhaps to do with my reaction to it. I didn't really want it to be about the poem but about the ideas behind it which I found narrow and restrictive.
I think it is always interesting to look at the role of women

The woman you say you have no idea why she may be feeling down, as everyone else seems to have realised was writing in reflection of the meaning of her (and many of our) lives on the death of her husband. Maw has posted a number of times about Paw's declining health and posted to share the news of his death with Gransnet members.
I feel you are splitting hairs here trisher and in a very confrontational manner.

I can't recall ever posting anything so critical to anyone on gransnet before. Debating interesting subjects, in which the role of women sits high on my list, can become polarised because the personal is political. I had a dreadful first marriage, divorced becoming a single parent with a child. Remarried some time later, had more children and feel so fortunate to have experienced the positives that marriage can bring. That doesn't mean I don't care about my single/divorced/childless loved ones. Debates like this surely have more to offer than 'who wins'.

There was nothing confrontational about this thread. Indeed if I had wanted to be confontational I could have posted on the poem. I'm afraid I don't follow the personal life of all the posters on GN and indeed avoid threads with too many personal posts. There was nothing on the poem thread to indicate any of the things you have said Ian64. I am sorry MawBroon has lost her husband but if she chooses to post very dismissive things I think I have a right to reply

I've come back to this thread to apologise for my post having had a depressing effect and am quite shocked to see that it has descended into personal attack on a recently bereaved regular poster. Shame on you OP

Anyway, Monday was a bad day for me, attended the funeral of yet another old friend and neighbour, with only a handful of fellow mourners, came home to a TV not working and flood on kitchen floor (DH fiddling with controls again) but all sorted now and back to normal.

In reply to PensionPat - It makes me so happy to hear that your Christmas Shop is raring to go again this year. Our Christmas shop, now in its 4th year was in jeopardy with 1 DD working away, the other ill, and me with very limited time and energy, it appeared that none of the usual volunteers, while more than happy to collect donations and staff the shop. would take on the overall responsibility. We have been fortunate that 2 Community Organisations, with paid staff + volunteers have agreed to host the shop this year in their shared premises. So the shop will continue and guess how I will be 'pampering myself' on Day Care Wednesdays? Correct - I'll be doing a shift in the shop each week till Christmas. This will make me a very happy Santa's Little Helper indeed.

Some of our 'Babies' are not human ones, but rather ideas and projects that we have instigated, that have been expanded, taken wings and flown and had positive effects for many. It can be painful when such things grow on and change out with our personal control, but as with our human children, trainees, pupils, followers, whatever, we can only take a quiet pride in having laid the foundations which allowed them to develop in their own way.

My children and grandchildren are extremely precious to me, but they know me as a strong woman, a courageous woman, a hard working woman, an educated woman, a career woman, a feminist, a champion of many causes and someone who knew adversity and hard times but kept going. I was a wife too, and that is probably the part of my life that wasn't very satisfactory or happy.

I think I was the only woman amongst my friends who questioned the 'joys' of motherhood when I had my first child.

I suspect many women of our generation haven't had it easy. Yes, we are proud parents and grandparents but we are much, much more and some of the stories we could tell might make younger generations think. We were trailblazers and pioneers in many respects, going where women before us hadn't been in terms of life experiences. We may be seen as harmless 'old dears' now but I have some personal tales that still make me smile and blush in equal measure. My youth was colourful. (I'd never dare tell the children - they'd see their mother in a whole new light!)

In my case, I did lots (am still trying to do lots!) but my children enhanced a fairly rich life (rich in terms of experiences and not wealth, unfortunately!)

I felt the poem was obviously a genuine and touching expression of the writer's feelings, but I also felt uneasy about the values that it appeared to me to be espousing.

trisher did not post on the poem thread but started a separate thread in order to express her opinion with regard to the role of women. What she said was not a criticism of a person but questioned the underlying theme of the poem. I'm not sure why she should be criticised for expressing an opinion, especially as she refrained from making her comments on the poem thread.

As I said before, my family is extremely important to me but I certainly don't think that a female's primary role in life should be portrayed as that of giving birth and nurturing children to adulthood. What, for instance, has happened to the father in this scenario - surely his role deserves a mention? Anyway, I feel there are many ways in which women can lead meaningful and valuable lives aside from procreating. To imply otherwise is surely to devalue those women who have chosen not to, or who cannot, have children.

I chose not to have children, so I don't have any grandchildren. I could count on one hand the number of times I have felt broody and then it was only for a few moments. This choice has consequences because there will be no children or grandchildren to support me in my old age, but I've been on here long enough to know there is no guarantee that families will be part of the lives of the elderly.

No regrets.