Is this out of order?

A child of mine would also have been simply lifted onto my knee.

I think parents these days are afraid of not being popular with their children and allow them to have the upper hand. We were expected to sit on laps and were never asked if it was what we wanted to do. Adults were much more in charge.

And what is paid to the bus companies by the local authorities comes out of taxes. So it's possible to be an income tax and council tax payer who has a 'free' bus pass.

Nothing is free.

The pass is free to the passenger, but the local authority which issues it has paid an estimate of the value of it to the bus company.

That is why it is scanned as you enter - so that there is a record of the total value of all the journeys taken in the year by pass-holders. The amount the bus companies are paid the next year is based on how much they would have received in the previous year if the pass-holders had paid.

And those who don't pay because they have a free pass!!????

Where did it all go wrong.! I would simply have lifted the child onto my knee without a choice, as I would have done when my own children were little. I am reminded of a holiday in Italy many years ago when we decided to take ourselves off sightseeing using local buses....most of the time the buses were full to capacity, the driver would let the whole queue on regardless of how many people were waiting. I found myself along with several other women passengers with a small toddler sat on my knee or wedged in with us if it was old enough to stand alone. The driver would then finally close the doors...touch the rosary hanging in the front of his seat...make the sign of the cross on himself and finally drive off. A very unusual experience for us ...there were no sour faces, everyone helping each other and one bus full of happy passengers. Of course that would not have happened in the UK even years ago.....but it was the willingness to help each other even though there was a language barrier that shone out from that memorable experience and sadly that is what seems to be missing in your experience. PS ...you may have been spared one " terrible two,s" tantrum by the child remaining in the seat...and the rest of the passengers too!

And some parents wonder why their children became uncontrollable teenagers .... when they are not taught manners and boundaries from a very early age. You have to ask in many scenarios, who is in control, the adult or the child !!

On the basis that those travelling free should give up their seats, would this include those travelling on Bus passes? The problem (imo) is parents asking their children. A two year old is told not asked.

Giving a child of 2 the option of saying I will sit on mummy's lap or I don't want to do that when a bus is full is not acceptable to my mind. HOWEVER, the idea that because a child doesn't pay s/he is not entitled to the safety of a seat is absolute rubbish and it's no wonder that some young people think us oldies are anti-child. The key issue here is safety - children cannot anticipate in the way that adults can - a bus lurches and an adult can respond whereas a child can be totally shocked and fall. Living in London I use buses and tubes regularly, and whilst I would always put my grandchildren when they were babies and toddlers on my lap, I would never ask them aged 4+ to stand for an older person because it's far more dangerous for a child to stand than it is for an older person. And let's be clear about who pays and who doesn't - ultimately all services whether private bus companies or trains - use the infrastructure that is paid for by taxes which we all pay, including the parents of those kids. The other thing to remember is that there are many reasons why a child may not be able to sit on it's mother's lap but which you as a fellow traveller can't immediately see, i.e., the mum may be pregnant or not feeling well. More tolerance from everyone is required in this whole matter.

Just to be the apologist here, it may be the mother knew that if she forced the kid to do something it didn't want to do, ALL the passengers would get a headache from its screeching. This isn't always down to bad management, some kids are born strong willed and need a few more years training than other more placid kids to learn about other people's needs.

Our primary school motto was 'manners maketh man'!!!

There used to be a notice on our buses saying children to stand if adults need a seat. Surely the mother or carer should have the gumption to remove the child from the seat.

At such a young age they should be following the rules not making them!

Absolutely agree. It's seems to be the way things are these days, sadly.

Totally agree, child should not have been asked but told she had to sit on parents knee how else do children learn respect for others? No wonder we now seem to have a society where people think only of themselves. Have noticed this a lot lately especially on the underground, parents seem oblivious to what I consider good manners.

Sign of the times.
Manners and social consideration seem to be fading fast.

A quiet word with the bus driver might have done the trick. It's the same with healthy young men who often take up a seat when there are elderly/ disabled passengers standing.
My husband is a healthy 68 and he still stands up for women, It's a pity the days of chivalry and courtesy seem to have disappeared

Children are being brought up with too much sense of entitlement. It is foolish to give a young child a choice in such a situation, they should be told what to do. I sometimes use the bus to travel from town after walking in if the weather allows it. If there are schoolchildren wanting to catch my bus they regularly push in at the front of the queue or join friends at the front. I usually tell them politely that there is a queue and they should go to the back of it but they just look at me blankly. Yesterday the usual bus was replaced by a minibus and not everybody could get on. Three seats were occupied by children who had pushed in and annoyingly they only went three stops then got off.

The age old traditional dictatorship type of parenting - I hate people training dogs that way but 'teaching' children like that is even worse. Have we learned nothing?

It's very simple, easy and empowering to negotiate with a 2 year old. Negotiation skills are valuable in all areas of society.

I'm afraid on public transport I need an aisle seat as I have difficulty standing up particularly after a long journey, however if I'm on a train travelling to the terminus I do prefer a window seat (I love watching where I'm going).

When DD was small she always sat on my knee if necessary. I was on a bus a few years ago when on elderly lady offered me her seat (I walk with a stick & have difficulty standing for too long), however not all young people are inconsiderate, my DGS1 would be the first to give up a seat, he's 8 (DD's OH is disabled), it's the way they're brought up

I would have plonked the child on my knee- no nonsense.

As a nan and a childminder I always make the children stand or sit on my lap if there is someone else in need of a seat ie elderly, or pregnant, etc. I was on a bus with an elderly uncle in his 80s and unfortunately he had an early hospital apt which meant we was on the bus with a lot of school children, not one of them offered him a seat. Even tho quite loudly I asked can someone give this gentlemen a seat. But it fell on deaf ears. I think it's a sign of the times.

Manners make our culture. What the young forgot they maybe the one standing with arthritic hips. In pain but still trying the carry on and be independent.

I have a memory of my twins at about 3 years old, on a very crowded bus, shaming several gentlemen, who wouldn’t meet her eye, by standing up when a pregnant lady got on, and saying ‘lady sit?’. They both climbed on my lap and the lady was more than grateful a we chatted all the way home!

Recently I got on the bus after a hospital visit, bang on school time. Several young people stood to offer their seats and I was practically forced to take a seat .

I made a note of the school and was delighted to call and offer praise where due when I got home.

Not all kids are bad - and, clearly, not all parents are good!

I'd have moved my child, paid for or not.
I watched 999 what's your emergency last night. The number of people ringing the police to deal with their aggressive often violent children was shocking.
'Threatening your mum with a knife because you do not want to go to bed' and the police had to intervene.
You can't start negotiating with a two year old child and then when they are 14 years old decide to be authoritarian. Children can't cope with it, their brains have not developed enough to do do. Discipline and manners start as a small child and continue until they mature.
What seems like a 'choice' about a seat on a bus is potentially much more serious.
I'm in no way saying to 'rule with an iron fist' or not give choice but there has to be some sort of balance.