Moaning Leavers, an explanation

Not everyone who Voted leave wanted a hard no deal Brexit which is what looks like happening. Many thought there would be more money for public services, we would still be able to get free trade with the EU, that workers would be better off, there would be an end to austerity, that agreeing a trade deal would be quick and easy. All these things were promised by some sections of the leave campaign. Now it looks like most of these things won’t be happening anytime soon. Even Farage and Rees M admit benefits for ordinary folk will be a long time coming. The Tory party in fighting highlights the unpleasant divisions this whole fiasco is causing.

And they wonder why we think Leavers are a bunch of thick rascists?
That remark shows a complete lack of insight into how other people may think or why some voted as they did.
In fact, it shows an astonishing degree of thickness.

Crystaltips No one has a Crystal Ball to know what it actually be like 'on the other side'. There is no surety to your assertion that everything promised will not come to pass.
But, would austerity have ended whilst in the EU, are public services improving whilst we remain?
Has a free trade agreement been taken off the table.
What we can probably be assured of is that we will be in a better place than the rest of the EU when it implodes.

Luckygirl - your comments are insulting. ‘If we confine ourselves to insulting them, how can we begin to understand their lives and reasoning.’

Over 17 million people voted to leave the EU, you make us sound like ALIENS. I for one will never understand why anyone with a functioning brain cell would vote to stay in such a corrupt institution.

Grandad1943
Why would the Czech Republic and Poland bite the hand that feeds them.
Since joining in 2004:
The Czech Republic has received €22,848 million above what it has paid in
Poland has received €83,148 million above what it has paid in

Good grief, some of you really are dim.
For those that are ‘hard of thinking’, the ‘thick rascist’ comment was because some posters genuinely seem to believe that Brexit could easily be achieved if only TM was demonstrably more patriotic.
Unfortunately, it appears that a few far right (aka Tommy Robinson supporters) have infiltrated Gransnet.

In 2016, 17 million voted to leave out of a population of more than 65 million, many of whom ( more than 3 million) were taxpayers but disenfranchised because they were EU citizens living in this country for many years. So Leave won by a narrow majority.

The leave campaigners like to say "we all knew what we were voting for". The truth is that none of them knew what they were voting for and they don't know even now. The implications of a leave vote should have been explained in detail before the referendum, instead of which we were fed lies. Not just the lie on the bus, but many, many lies.

You may be one of these leave voters who thought about, the NI border, the Single Market, the Customs Union, the fact that (according to JRM) none of us will be better off by leaving for the next fifty years (except of course for a small number of multi-millionaires like him), but surely you have to recognise that there were a substantial number of people who were fooled into voting leave by the relentless lying propaganda of the rightwing tabloids and the shady operators who manipulated opinion on social media.

joelsnanhow come you have a crystal ball when it comes to predicting the future of the EU but no one has one when it comes to predicting the outcome of Brexit?

Seems to me that TM has done at least two very stupid things, apart from inflicting that unnecessary election on her party.
First was the premature triggering of article 50 when it was already obvious that March ‘19 was an absurd deadline. Second has been allowing the funding of local services to get into a state of near collapse with very serious consequence.
In the name of those who will suffer job losses post-Brexit and are already suffering from the appalling benefits systems or not receiving the care they need, why should we forgive her on the grounds that she is ‘doing her best’? Aren’t our standards higher than that?

TM’s best is not good enough and her party is imploding. It does not have a monopoly on brains and competence as it seems to think. Far from it. Time for a national government!

Plus just saying Jeremy Corbyn would do a worse job is also not an argument for putting up with our current mess.

Crystaltips
I take it you did read my post to you where i said no one jnows.
If you are referring to my comment about being in a better place when the EU inevitably implodes, then think (analogy) 'It's those who leave the building when the fire alarm rings who survive. Those who remain at their desks to finish their lunch thinking its only a false alarm perish.

craicon you are taiking the craic!

Petra Quote[Grandad1943
Why would the Czech Republic and Poland bite the hand that feeds them.
Since joining in 2004:
The Czech Republic has received €22,848 millionabove what it has paid in
Poland has received €83,148 millionabove what it has paid in] End Quote

Petra, it matters little whether Poland and the Czech republic wish to bite the hand that feeds or not. What Britain is requesting from the EU is that they change the Maastricht Treaty which forms the very basis of the European Union because we wish to leave that union.

It should be remembered that the United Kingdom signed that Treaty voluntarily in 1992 with full knowledge of the obligations that were undertaken by way of the four freedoms, those being the movement of people, capital, goods and services. Since that date, other nations on joining have also signed that obligation treaty which today forms the twenty-eight nations of the European Union.

There are as so often pointed out tensions within those nations in regard to the political speed and direction the EU should take on any number of matters and issues.

However, as Theresa May is finding out in her talks with individual Nations such as Poland and the Czech Republic, there is no appetite for "ripping up" that treaty at this point in time, even if that means losses to individual member states through Britain "crashing out" of the EU. without an agreement.

I believe it is for British negotiators to come forward with a solution that allows the United Kingdom to withdraw from Europe without having twenty-seven other countries having to agree on changes to a treaty that forms the basis of the EU purely to allow Britain to leave.

It may come as a surprise to some who voted leave in the referendum, but there are many in Europe who still believe in the founding principles of the European Union and which are undertaken in the Maastricht treaty and they are not willing to change those principles just because Britain wants to leave.

The EU is the EU, and will continue (for the time being, at least) to be the EU when we leave. For whatever the reason, the majority of our voters voted to leave it, and the EU is not preventing us from doing that. However, when it comes down to it, there really aren't any 'compromises' to be made by them, are there? Obviously, agreement has to be reached over financial obligations on both sides, but beyond that, "out means out", so why would the EU either want or need to 'negociate' (i.e. 'compromise') in any other way at this stage? I am still surprised that anyone ever expected it to be any different, whoever had chosen to accept the poisoned chalice.

Grandad1943
It was expected that in 2006 the UK would hold a referendum on ratifying that Maastricht Treaty. The issue was considered moot when it was superceded by the Treaty of Lisbon, when another referrendum was promised before ratification, however a parliamentary election at the time resulted in Gordon Brown ratifying without the promised referendum.
Were you at Theresa' s side during her negotiations with Poland and Czech Republic?
You will note that these are two countries who benefit most from the ability to free move personnel and goods. But you should also note that it is a bit of a one way street, especially with regard to people...you take ours by the millions, but dont try to import anyone here.
Rather than imagining TM going to these countries with doffed cap. Think about her just letting them know what they are about to lose.
My supposition is that the majority of countries would like to at least amend the Maastrict Treaty to restrict free movement of people.

Grandad1945
Did you know that the Maastrict Treaty imposes limits on government debt as a proportion of GDP, which as a direct result of ratification led to the Private Finance Initiative (PFI) which has come to be the burning tyre around our Health, Education and general public services.
Once public spending was curtailed government had to turn to private investors. As a consequence rather than the reinvesting of public revenues, the private profits are going offshore. All this thanks to the EU.

Joelsnan, there are undoubtedly those in Europe who would like to amend the Maastricht treaty. However, they are not of sufficient number to bring that about and that is likely to remain the overall position throughout the British withdraw negotiations.

We have always been told throughout any number of years that one issue or another will bring about the collapse of the European Union.

However, equally through any number of midnight crisis meetings the EU has overcome those issues and continued to survive. That I believe demonstrates there is within the European Union member states a deep belief in its governing principles, which maintains an equal deep belief to see its survival.

The above is a situation the British government has grossly underestimated I believe in its withdraw negotiations with the EU.

Grandad1943
Sorry just reduced your age by 2 years in previous post.

Grandad1943
At the moment there is an uneasy pathalogical symbiosis. Already a number of EU states have declared that the will not pay more into the (already bankrupt) funds.
It will be interesting to view the midnight crisis meetings from the outside when finance is discussed.

Joelsnan, its quite alright to reduce my age by two years. In fact I would be very appreciative if you could reduce my age by 22 years or even more.

joelsnan so you don’t know if the EU will implode by your admission. To take your analogy - Maybe those who hear a firebell ring shouldnt dance with glee when others get burnt, they should try to help their colleagues and work to improve fire safety in the first place.

crystaltipps
Where did dancing with glee enter the conversation?

If UK is in a better place when the EU implodes, it will do what it has always done...help our European friends.

joelsnan
I see that nobody wants to comment on your information Re PFI initiative, i would imagine that's opened a few eyes.

Joelsnan, I feel that many people only look at the negative sides of the EU, and without doubt, there are many.

However, I feel we should also look at the positive sides that the Union has brought to Europe by way of its development. Much of our right-wing media criticizes the "jaw-jaw" slow pace of its bureaucracy. However, that is surely much better than the war-war that so often took place in Europe prior to the formation of the Common Market which made the first economic ties between states being the forerunner of the full EU.

The European Unions has brought forward many other achievements with perhaps the greatest being in my humble opinion the freedom to travel and trade throughout the Union without restriction

The above has brought our tables fruits and vegetables from Southern Europe at all times of the year which would have been unthinkable in many of our younger days.

Such produce as Strawberries, Raspberries, Tomatoes and much more can be cut or picked in Spain or Portugal and be on our supermarket shelves within thirty hours brought to us on trucks with triple shift driver spans which enables such things as those cucumbers lettuce and tomatoes to be purchased in packs for far less than a pound in our retail stores.

That to me is what the European Union has all been about. It has brought forward a stability that was unknown prior to its formation and a trading environment that could only be dreamed of only a few generations ago.

Grandad1943
We have always had freedom of movement throughout most of the current EU. I had an uncle who lived in Spain from the 1950s and an aunt who would send postcards from her trips around Europe in the 50s and 60s.
I went on a school exchange visit in the mid 1960s to Lille.
With regard to fruit and veg. We always did import them, probably will continue to do so, however, if not there us a vast marketplace out there who would be ready to supply.
Egyptian potatoes are fabulous. Fruit and veg from the Levant is superb and year round supplier.