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AIBU to ask if you knew this about GirlGuiding?

(42 Posts)
FarNorth Fri 10-Aug-18 03:01:10

I just saw this on Mumsnet - did anyone here know about GirlGuiding's policies re transgirls?

This link

Is where you'll find GG policy on male volunteers and male children & accommodation on residential trips which states "If male volunteers or male children are present, there must be separate sleeping and bathroom facilities for them."

This link

Is where you'll find GG's policy on transgender members - note the quote given by a volunteer "All they want to do is 'be'. They aren't sexual predators or con artists; they are simply children. - Girlguiding volunteer leader".

You can apply the same logic to the male children referenced in the policy that says that there should be separate bathroom & sleeping facilities for them - they aren't sexual predators either, they're children too. But GG still separate them from the female children. Why? What's the difference between a male child & a male child who identifies as a girl?

BlueBelle Fri 10-Aug-18 07:01:28

My grandaughter used to belong to the scouts (about 3 years ago) there were other girls in the troop but when they camped out in dorms (happened a few times) they all slept in the same room
I wonder what the scout policy is ?

petunia Fri 10-Aug-18 07:42:14

The policies seem a little confused. On the one hand, boys and girls are to sleep in separate places, and have separate facilities, on the other; everyone must be sensitive to the wishes of the trans guide and allow them to sleep and wash wherever they want. So while the trans guide is allowed to “be”, the girls have no say in the matter. The younger guides may have issues around their changing bodies, the start of their periods and the need for privacy. Even among a group of other girls, some may not feel comfortable to undress or shower with others. Yet one policy says it’s ok for a trans guide to be present among the girls. The other clearly states the sexes are kept apart. What is the answer?

Bluegal Fri 10-Aug-18 07:45:27

My daughter was a Scout too. Actually I never even thought to wonder about sleeping arrangements at the time and I think they dug holes in the ground for toilets and don't think they showered/washed in all the time they were there!!

OP you definitely have a point! What is the difference?

FarNorth Fri 10-Aug-18 08:25:30

I got the impression, from others, that the Scouts had clear guidelines on separate sexes. But I don't actually know what they do.

Seemingly, this change in Guide policy has been brought in and added to the website without guides or parents being told about it.

FarNorth Fri 10-Aug-18 08:27:11

I didn't mean to give the impression that the whole post is mine, btw, sorry if it looks like that.
Only the first sentence is mine, the main part is lifted from Mumsnet.

sodapop Fri 10-Aug-18 08:32:55

It seems that once again a minority group has the right to do as they please whilst the rest get no choice. What is it with UK that they feel the need to bow to pressure of all these groups. I am not racist sexist, ageist or any other 'ist' just would be nice to see common sense rule for once.

NanaandGrampy Fri 10-Aug-18 08:43:19

I'm not positive - but maybe someone else is clearer but I'm sure my daughter told me that the policy for Scouts included them seeing no reason to tell parents if a transgender person was attending a residential event . So girls could find themselves sharing a dorm with an untransitioned transgender person. With parents being none the wiser.

BUT having said that I could be totally wrong !!

OldMeg Fri 10-Aug-18 08:44:51

D’you know I’m normally a pretty tolerant sort of person but I’m beginning to dislike some minority group for their in-your-face dogmatic attitude.

wanders off to think about this

FarNorth Fri 10-Aug-18 10:16:46

NanaandGrampy, that's certainly the attitude in the Guides.

I agree it would be unfair to draw attention to a particular transgender guide but I think parents and guides should be made aware that there might be a trans person there, because of the new policy.

PECS Fri 10-Aug-18 11:08:09

What are we worried about? That a 12-15 year old who identifies as a girl, but is physically male, shares a room with girls? If the other girls don't realise she is physically a boy then they do need to know and be in on the decision making.
In my (very limited) experience a TGs friends are all aware of their TG friend's situation and are much more accepting of it than perhaps older people are. If the other GG are comfortable then not a problem. I am not sure there are huge numbers involved but best prepared for a situation should it arise.

petunia Fri 10-Aug-18 18:50:52

This post is likely to upset some gransnetters. I’m sorry but I have a bee in my bonnet. For me, the transgender issues raise many questions and some concerns. I think younger generations are much more relaxed about transgender issues and that is grand. But I do think we may be sleepwalking into some tricky situations in an effort to seem politically correct and modern.
The Girl Guide policy is just one of many changes that have the potential to change our entire way of thinking, inch by inch. I know that many people are concerned about who uses which toilet and the use of changing rooms. In a sense this is trivial stuff. The big stuff is yet to hit us.
I understand that about 80% of men who identify as women do not go on and have the full surgery. So 80% still have a fully functioning penis. This means that whatever that individual looks like when dressed, they have not fully committed to “being a woman”. That’s OK, their choice after all.
The old school transgender individual is probably the type we all recognise and support. The person who has undergone gruelling surgery, physiological assessment, medical treatment etc to fit in as a woman. We probably can all recognise the struggle and can empathise.
The new school transgender individual can be very different. They may or may not seek treatment; they may or may not choose to live as a woman full time. They may choose to be more fluid and dress as a woman today but a man tomorrow. Again, that is their choice and I am OK with that. But it also leads me to ask two questions.Is it enough for an individual to self identify as a woman and be treated accordingly. And what is the definition of a transgender woman.
So, the Tony of yesterday identifies as Fifi today and now....
Tony as Fifi can Access all female areas
Tony as Fifi can ask to go to an all girl’s school
Tony as Fifi can access female hospital wards
Tony as Fifi asks to be transferred to a female prison (apparently Ian Huntley has decided that he is a woman and has requested a transfer I believe).
Tony as Fifi can, if a sportsman, with all the physical and muscular advantages that testosterone brings, can now enter as a female
Tony as Fifi can enter sex specific occupations
Tony as Fifi can get onto female only short lists
Tony as Fifi can enter female refuges
Tony as Fifi can undertake intimate procedures as a female health professional even if the woman involved has specifically asked for a woman doctor/nurse/radiographer etc to perform the smear or mammogram.
There are other scenarios, but you might get my point
Back to the definition of what is a transgender woman? When should the hard won rights of woman should be granted to Tony. On the day he tells his work colleagues to “call me Fifi”? On the first day he puts a dress on? When he has been living as a woman for a week, a month, a year? When he starts the hormone treatment? When he finally has a vagina constructed?
The answer at the moment seems to be whenever the transgender woman wishes. But who is asking the women what they think?

sodapop Fri 10-Aug-18 20:03:09

Nobody is petunia we are just discounted.

Bluegal Fri 10-Aug-18 20:19:10

I think I get your message Petunia. (maybe help if you put paragraphs in for ease of reading lol)

Somebody said: the most discriminated person in our country is the white, hetrosexual male! So true - if you think about it? Everybody has 'rights' seemingly apart from them!

When I worked for Government - we were filled with information about LGBT and how we should accommodate them all but someone asked well what about ME...where am I accommodated? You have phone numbers galore for people to phone if they are in the LGBT circle? Who do I phone Guess what? answer

petunia Fri 10-Aug-18 20:42:11

Ooops sorry bluegal. I see what you mean. Bit of an overwhelming block of words. I just had to get it done before I changed my mind. I was in two minds about posting it as such comments can attract so much criticism. But my heart over rules my head in this instance.

BlueBelle Fri 10-Aug-18 21:55:14

I don’t think the white heterosexual Male is more disadvantaged than a woman who can do the same job for less money and have periods and childbirth to boot ?

If youd spent decades being imprisoned, spat on bullied even killed and constantly sent to the bottom of the pile I think you d be excused for wanting a few rights and somewhere to ring

Having said all that I agree with Petunias post about the difficulties of when the recognition of transgender start it’s a blooming minefield isn’t it I think it starts when they have completed their reassignment just like a mother becomes a mother when the baby pops out not while she’s pregnant a married woman isn’t married until the day of the wedding a teacher doesn’t become a teacher until they ve finished their course and passed their exams... but what do I know

PECS Fri 10-Aug-18 23:04:54 white middle class men generally set the rules and enforce them they are not an underrepresented minority! I am not losing sleep about their place in society.
My previous post only referred to young teens in GG..not the wider TG community.
I do have some issues with the idea of fluidity of gender identification.

If I decide to identify as a black woman (I am not) would that be OK? If I 'felt' black, empathised e.g. with the culture of a black west African woman ..I am still a white woman and wrong for me to think I could understand what it is really like to be black woman.
For those born male but "identify" as female but do not intend to actually transition physically/medically... they are not women. Just men saying they feel female but are not.
I do believe there are those who do have identity difficulties and may really have a body that does not match psyche. I have no idea what numbers would be. Not high Ì imagine.

FarNorth Sat 11-Aug-18 09:08:11

"If the other GG are comfortable then not a problem. I am not sure there are huge numbers involved but best prepared for a situation should it arise."

That's the point PECS, guides and their parents have not been informed that this is a possibility

*"I think it starts when they have completed their reassignment."

I think that's what most people believe, Bluebelle, yet as petunia stated, around 80% of males who claim to be women do not go on to have treatment of hormones or surgery.

The UK government is carrying out a consultation until October 19, where everyone can make their views known.

PECS Sat 11-Aug-18 09:49:55

Thanks for useful link Farnorth

franceisfun Tue 04-Sep-18 17:45:19

There are real problems here if legislation goes ahead so that men who self-ID as women (still with a penis and no gender reassignment surgery) can insist on the right to enter previously safe women-only spaces like refuges.

I say this not from transphobia in any way .. my worry is the opportunities the proposed legislation offers for ill-intentioned men - who are not truly transgender - to abuse vulnerable women by claiming to be women themselves.

Too many public bodies are afraid to come out and address this issue for fear of being accused of being transphobic.

It's crazy.

minesaprosecco Tue 04-Sep-18 20:07:59

Did you know that schools are being given guidance and training, from a number of companies, in supporting trans gender children? One of these is Allsorts - and one of their nuggets of wisdom is to suggest that a girl who objects to a transgirl (i. e. a full bodied boy) participating in the same sport as her should be encouraged to find another sport. So, the transgirl's rights trample all over the girl's rights. And this guidance and training is in schools now - apparently it is in all schools in Brighton. Why on earth it wasn't consigned to the rubbish bin by headteachers and governors is beyond me. By the way, I gleaned all this from Mumsnet, which is one of the very few places on the Internet where these issues are being discussed and not being shut down by trans activists. If any of you feel you'd like to know more, it's worth looking at the relevant Mumsnet feminism threads. I've learned a lot from them.

FarNorth Tue 04-Sep-18 22:02:19

Tony as Fifi asks to be transferred to a female prison

Whether that request is granted or not, Tony as Fifi may be released and commit another crime.
Tony as Fifi will then be treated as a female and the crime will be recorded as being carried out by a female, even if it is a sexual assault or rape.

Hence "no evidence of transwomen committing crimes" because no-one is keeping a record of that.

(The website is attempting to keep track of some crimes by trans people, the vast majority being transwomen i.e. men).

FarNorth Tue 04-Sep-18 22:06:59

Btw, some Guides may be thrilled if a cute boy decides he's a girl and is allowed to share accomodation with them.

Their parents may be less thrilled if they were unaware that was even a possibility until they find out a girl is pregnant (the transgirl having had a change of heart or, just possibly, not really being trans at all.)

FarNorth Sun 09-Sep-18 15:41:18

Here are the views of a Guide Leader who has been brave enough to put her head above the parapet on this :

In her conclusion she says "I oppose gender self identity because it breaches the most basic safeguarding principles. It undermines privacy and dignity and denies women and girls a choice. It also reinforces stereotypes: if being a girl is not based on biological sex, then what is it?"

minesaprosecco Sun 09-Sep-18 15:52:07

Thanks for that link FarNorth. Helen makes some very salient points.