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AIBU to ask if you knew this about GirlGuiding?

(43 Posts)
FarNorth Fri 10-Aug-18 03:01:10

I just saw this on Mumsnet - did anyone here know about GirlGuiding's policies re transgirls?

This link

Is where you'll find GG policy on male volunteers and male children & accommodation on residential trips which states "If male volunteers or male children are present, there must be separate sleeping and bathroom facilities for them."

This link

Is where you'll find GG's policy on transgender members - note the quote given by a volunteer "All they want to do is 'be'. They aren't sexual predators or con artists; they are simply children. - Girlguiding volunteer leader".

You can apply the same logic to the male children referenced in the policy that says that there should be separate bathroom & sleeping facilities for them - they aren't sexual predators either, they're children too. But GG still separate them from the female children. Why? What's the difference between a male child & a male child who identifies as a girl?

FarNorth Wed 12-Sep-18 12:41:36

I wrote to GirlGuiding to ask what their policy is for inclusion of transgirls in events.

Here is their reply :

Thank you for your further contact. I am very sorry for the continued delay in providing you with a response.

Please be advised that we are currently reviewing the points you’ve raised; however we will need a little longer than usual in order to provide you with a fully considered response.

We appreciate your patience whilst we review your question and please be assured that we will be in touch again soon.

Best wishes,


Kylie Appiah
Information & Complaints Administrator
Information, Enquiries & Complaints Team.

So it seems they have had no policy in place.

notanan2 Wed 12-Sep-18 16:26:32

If guiding care more about being seen as trans allies than they do about young girls then will that extend to not "deadnaming" (a mortal crime against transpeople) leaders by searching their birth name for criminal record checks?

P.s. shouldnt GGs inclusion of trans kids be trans boys (F-M)? If girls can be whatever they want to be etc?

FarNorth Thu 13-Sep-18 11:17:28

I'd guess, notanan2, that if a girl 'becomes' a boy s/he is then treated by GG as a boy, as in not allowed to be a guide.

At least GG now seem to be thinking about what their policy should be, instead of saying everything is fine.

Your point about transwomen Guide Leaders is very worrying, especially if lunacy prevails so that a criminal record can be deleted to spare a TW's feelings. shockconfusedconfusedangry

BlackeyedSusan Fri 14-Sep-18 23:07:44

yes i knew, Thanks to the Times and Mumsnet.

boys who transition to girls, can share accomodation with girls who were born girls. this includes sharing rooms, and shower facilities. in addition the parents of the girls are not told that their daughter will be sharing with a person born male who will still have a male body. Also, if the girls object they are "re-educated"

Baggs Sat 15-Sep-18 07:21:53

Scout Assoc separates girls and boys on residential trips too.

Seems a perfectly normal thing to do.

My sister and I had a separate bedroom from our brothers from a fairly early age. I think, from oersonal observations, that children begin (note te word "begin") to become sexually aware at about the age of six. It's decent and respectful to give them a bit of privacy.

The trans issue is just muddying the waters. Physical attributes do matter. I have said that while having full sympathy for any child who feels they are in the wrong body.

Baggs Sat 15-Sep-18 07:23:34

Itis not the job of the Girl Guides or the Scout Association, or any other such body, to change rules about such things while trans issues are not yet fully understood. I refer you to recent sexual assaults by men claiming to be women in women's prisons.

Baggs Sat 15-Sep-18 07:29:11

Except for sleeping and washing arrangements, the kids will be all together or in mixed groups for all activities.

Diana54 Sat 15-Sep-18 08:00:54

This is always going to be contentious, balancing Trans Rights as they are seen today with parents wishes. As a parent I would not want my daughter to be supervised by a Trans leader and she would simply leave Guiding.

It is a question of who I trust to keep my children safe, a Transvestite along with certain other groupings would not be permitted and as a parent I will choose.

The same issue is causing problems in prisons, where do you put prisoners who say the are Trans. The solution seems to be if they have had the operation and hormone treatment they can go to a female prison, otherwise it is a male prison. I'm not sure what the opposite change would mean, would a female who identifies as male really want to go to a male prison

FarNorth Sat 15-Sep-18 23:05:27

Baggs, I think you have misunderstood.
GirlGuiding intends to treat male-bodied transgirls, i.e. boys, as being girls for all purposes including sharing sleeping accommodation and washing facilities.
Parents were not informed of this policy development.

FarNorth Sat 15-Sep-18 23:11:28

Diana54, a prison governor has already said that a transman (female) in a men's prison would simply not be safe, so it would not be allowed.

Having surgery and hormone treatment does not make a man into a woman and does not remove criminal tendency towards women if that already exists.

FarNorth Sun 23-Sep-18 12:31:14

Helen Watts, the Guide Leader quoted earlier in this thread, has been expelled from her post for raising concerns about GirlGuiding's policy on trans leaders and guides.

I haven't seen anything about GirlGuiding actually addressing those concerns and explaining what they are doing to ensure everyone's safety.

SueDonim Sun 23-Sep-18 13:09:01

Farnorth I've just read news item elsewhere and I am boggled at the sheer refusal to the GG's to see what is in front of them.

Have you seen this, too, in Canada?

oldbatty Tue 25-Sep-18 18:41:56

Who, in their right mind would volunteer with this organisation? Gender issues, leaders in Hijab, Autism. My kids loved Scouts and it was damn hard work for the leaders.

Its so sad for the thousands of kids who benefit from this organisation.

FarNorth Wed 26-Sep-18 12:33:38

I don't understand your reference to autism, oldbatty.
I have no problem with leaders, or guides, in hijab. In fact, Muslim women and girls are likely to exclude themselves from guides when they become aware that there may be male-bodied leaders and guides there.

Here is GirlGuiding's response to media criticism of their suspension of two guide leaders :

Can they genuinely see no possible problem with simply accepting a statement from a boy or man, that he is now a girl or woman?

oldbatty Wed 26-Sep-18 12:56:35

The scouting organisation relies on volunteers who work so hard to help. I was reflecting on the seemingly increasing complexity of things which may put some people off. It was badly worded.

FarNorth Thu 27-Sep-18 12:23:31

Background checks on transwomen who volunteer as Guide leaders will be meaningless if this person gets their way.

A transwoman wishes crimes committed when he was a man to be removed from record, so that employers will not be aware of his trans status.

A right to removal, if established, could cover rape, another crime that can legally be committed only by a person with a penis.

FarNorth Sun 30-Sep-18 09:13:36

Here is an extract from an article in the Mail on Sunday, giving the background to Helen Watts' dismissal as a Guide Leader.

Helen also had serious concerns about the culture of secrecy the Guides’ new rules were encouraging. The transgender policy stated that it was not ‘best practice’ to tell parents that their daughters would be sharing facilities such as sleeping areas and toilets with transgender girls, who were born male, during trips away.

And it added that it would be ‘unlawful’ for leaders to inform parents their children were being looked after by transgender women on overnight excursions.

‘To foster this environment where Guide leaders can keep secrets from parents felt very sinister,’ Helen says. ‘Child protection rule number one is you do not keep secrets with children. A child who has a secret with an adult is very vulnerable to being exploited.’