Trans rapist in woman’s prison ?

trisher, I have not read any prejudicial posts, this thread is about the incindent of a transgender female with full male genitalia raping a female in a UK prison.

You can quite whatever statistics you like, but this is what the OP is about.

As a female one would have thought you would be supportive of this vulnerable rape victim.

And yes, trisher, of course we should try and find ways of reducing violence in prisons, but allowing fully male bodied people (whatever they call themselves, and especially ones who are in prison because they are sex offenders against women) into the female estate isn't going to help!

I haven't said that one crime is more important than another crime SueDonim I have said that there are assaults and rapes everyday and that focussing on one crime is more to do with the sensibilities and the attitude taken to prisoners than with what actually happened. It is the outrage expressed on this thread I object to. It's nothing to do with the violence experienced by prisoners and everything to do with personal opinion and prejudices.

Legal definition of rape:
Rapeis astatutoryoffence in England and Wales. According to thelaw,rape occurs when one person penetrates another with their penis without the consent of the person being penetrated. If a victim is forcefully penetrated with an object, this is classed as "Assault by Penetration"
Saying that there are other forms of violence in prison does not justify giving a known rapist access to females - it's just 'whataboutery' and is nothing to do with the OP's question. My view is that this person used the confusion about transgenderism to gain access to vulnerable women who had no choice about him being there, could not get away because they were locked up with him, had to shower with him etc etc. The prison service is getting itself in a complete knot about this, as are so many other organisations, and the result is damage to women and women's rights. By the way, he also said that he would, and could, abuse children and think nothing of it. That's maybe not relevant to this thread, but he really is a very dangerous person and should, in my view, be kept as isolated as possible.

I am arguing that rape and sexual assaults happen in prisons everyday SueDonim and that the problem needs to be dealt with. Where you accommodate trans people is yet another example of how out of date our prison system is, and how you deal with the wider problem of prison violence is more important than dealing with one trans gender person. Or perhaps you feel that male rape in prison is acceptable simply because both parties have a penis?

This man had also committed offences against children, there was a mother and baby unit in this prison.

I’m incredulous about that too SueDonim but fortunately it’s only trisher who seems to take this view.
A man with a history of rape and violence towards women being put in a prison with women is mind boggling.
What an awful person he is, and what idiots sometimes the authorities can be!

How about using two words, Trisher? Sexual assault.

I'm incredulous that you're arguing that because women are sexually assaulted in prison, it doesn't matter if yet another crime is committed against them in the form of rape.

Or maybe it isn't rape if it's committed using a lady penis.

Violence should not be acceptable in any situation trisher.

I stand by my opinion that a self identified male with a penis should not be in a female prison, which afterall is the OP.

So what word would you like me to use for the action of sticking a bottle, or a brush handle,or any other implement into another woman's vagina as is done quite often by women inmates in prison SueDonim ? Whatever word you use the damage can be tremendous, although of course it is often not reported and the victim goes without treatment. The point is that prisons are violent places and that there are people of both sexes in prison who are subjected to violence. Unfortunately the violence they are subjected to isn't head line grabbing and does not invite the attention of the press, or the sympathy apparently of many on GN who seem to think one incident of rape by a transwoman is more important than the many other instances of rape which happen every day.
I haven't by the way said a trans gender woman should be in a woman's prison nor have I cast judgement on the appearance of anyone. I have simply said that violence in prison is a more complicated matter and needs to be dealt with in a better manner.
From the Independent in January
Violent incidents last year included 7,828 assaults on prison staff – a 22 per cent rise compared to the previous 12 months – and 20,346 prisoner-on-prisoner assaults, marking a 9 per cent rise on the previous year and the highest on record
But one rape deserves more outrage!

I agree with Grannygravy as well. It is impossible with our current prison situation to accommodate all possible gender variants. So many criminals are plausible and will try to convince the authorities of anything to gain power over women. No place for a penis in a womens prison.

He pulled the wool over the eyes of the authorities. They are too scared now to challenge anything.

In English & Welsh law there's no such thing as rape committed by women or by implement, Trisher. It is a crime committed solely by people with male bodies.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_English_law

Here is a recent article about a transwoman who is trying to have crimes committed as a man to be removed from their record.
If granted this would create a precedent for any transwoman offender or ex-offender to hide crimes that would reveal their previous identity as a man.

That would include rape.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb

Yes, trisher, there is a lot of violence in prisons. Why do you think increasing the risk of violence by admitting male-bodied people into female prisons is a good idea?

The current violence won't stop, there will just be another type of violence added in.

Sorry has this happened ? Is it going to happen?

Yes.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525441/Transgender-murderer-Paris-Green-moved-womens-prison-sex-inmates.html

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

And yes, trisher, I expect rape is no big deal to prisoners.

And a particularly ugly male at that ,he had no female features or mannerisms, he just wanted access to women, full stop.

Grannygravy has said exactly what I was going to say

trisher, "the trans" person in question had a penis, what makes you think that is appropriate in a female prison. He is and was a fully functional male.

Why Iam64 ? There are many cases of rape (by both sexes) where a penis is not used but an implement is. Discusing one instance of rape in prison is in my opinion to dismiss without any consideration the considerable damage that is done by violent people of both sexes to other people in prison through rape and physical assaults that can be classified as rape. Of course any instance of rape is horrific, but picking out one instance and demanding that a trans person should be accommodated somewhere special is ignoring those who have been (and are being) subjected to violent assaults every day. And many of those assaults do not involve a penis but are between same sex prisoners. The damage done can be horrific, but of course this doesn't attract the press coverage and the outrage the trans issue does, possibly because some think people in prison deserve what ever is done to them.

x posted there with baggs and trisher. trisher, your suggestion that rape by penis is possibly less damaging than rape by an implement is one you need to re-consider imo.

There is an issue here relating to men who self ID as women. This prisoner had historical convictions of a number of sexual offences against women and children, as well as offences of violence. He has now been convicted of two sexual offences against female prisoners, inside a women prison.

Women are sentenced more harshly than men, more likely to be imprisoned for non violent offences. Shop lifting is a real issue, women who are struggling to feed their children, or their drug habit are often given short prison sentences of - 6 months for shoplifting. Yes it's usually a last resort but it doesn't stop the drug use, the underlying mental health problems and it breaks up families.

Research into those who believe they are in the wrong body/gender is in its early stages. I don't sit comfortably in the anti trans lobby, nor do I accepts its ok for them to label women who are uneasy about sharing hard fought for safe spaces with men who simply say they self ID as women.
Male violence with use of male genitalia is what happened to these women in their prison. It is unlikely to have been their first experience of male violence. Women in prison are likely to have mental health problems, drug/alcohol dependency, to self harm and to have experienced abuse in their childhoods or adult lives.
I'm not suggesting that life in mens prisons is a bowl of cherries but we're discussing here, whether men who are confused about their sexuality/sexual identity/gender should be able to self ID as female in order to be placed in a women prison.
Ian Huntley is one prisoner who is currently self ID as female and asking to be transferred to a women's prison. His history includes domestic abuse, sexual assault against women in addition to the murders he is currently imprisoned for.

Yes, but that's kind of beside the point when the point is a penis.

I don't suppose if you are raped in prison it makes all that much difference if it is a penis, a bottle or some other implement that is used. In fact a penis might cause less physical damage than some of the things involved.

It isn't a trans issue in the sense that bad people do bad things. It's a trans issue when a person born male who is being jailed for rape is out in a women's prison because he identifies as a woman, the case, in short, of Karen White. People like that will use loopholes in laws about trans people (or, put more simply, bad laws) to abuse women.

It's not anti-trans or transphobic to say this. It's anti-rapist.

In answer to trisher's questions, I don't know what the solution is, but I do know what the answer isn't, and that is to allow a rapist with a man's body to be jailed in a women's prison.