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Trans rapist in woman’s prison ?

(61 Posts)
Bridgeit Fri 12-Oct-18 10:24:34

Is this acceptable ? What are the alternatives ?

Baggs Fri 12-Oct-18 10:33:04

No, I don't think it is acceptable. A trans person's basic human rights should be protected of course, but so should those of non-trans women. There has already been in the news a story of someone who "identifies as a woman" sexually assaulting four women in a female-only prison.

If trans women are not safe in men's prisons, then we need trans prisons as well.

trisher Fri 12-Oct-18 10:42:04

Sorry has this happened ? Is it going to happen? And whilst we are on about it what about male rapists in men's prisons? Should they be accommodated somewhere else as well? Or do we just accept male rape as part of prison life?

Bridgeit Fri 12-Oct-18 10:47:54

I beleive she was initially in a womans prison where she carried out an assault & was then moved to a male prison.( sorry I am no good at doing links)
The discussion also covers wither or not a person has physically transitioned or is self identifying

DoraMarr Fri 12-Oct-18 10:57:34

Rape is wrong, man-on-woman, woman-on- man, man-on-man, woman-on-woman......Prisons are overcrowded and understaffed, there should be better protection for all prisoners against all kinds of attacks.

trisher Fri 12-Oct-18 10:57:41

So where do we put women who assault women or men who assault men? Do we in fact need to look at the whole prison system which is still very much run on Victorian lines?

Bridgeit Fri 12-Oct-18 11:10:15

Yes I guess the whole system needs reviewing, but with underfunding & understaffing it’s not going to happe any time soon.

trisher Fri 12-Oct-18 11:23:06

So it isn't a trans issue it concerns all prisoners. Where do you put violent people and protect ordinary prisoners? I think Scotland had an interesting programme to deal with violent prisoners.

Bridgeit Fri 12-Oct-18 11:42:24

I beleive the problem is that this person is a Trans rapist , as opposed to just transgender.

Bridgeit Fri 12-Oct-18 11:45:30

I guess it begs the question should rapists be incarcerated in isolation or imprisoned together .

GrannyGravy13 Fri 12-Oct-18 12:33:33

This male to female transgender prisoner, still had male genitalia. Sorry, no place for a penis in a female prison.

Baggs Fri 12-Oct-18 13:04:30

It isn't a trans issue in the sense that bad people do bad things. It's a trans issue when a person born male who is being jailed for rape is out in a women's prison because he identifies as a woman, the case, in short, of Karen White. People like that will use loopholes in laws about trans people (or, put more simply, bad laws) to abuse women.

It's not anti-trans or transphobic to say this. It's anti-rapist.

In answer to trisher's questions, I don't know what the solution is, but I do know what the answer isn't, and that is to allow a rapist with a man's body to be jailed in a women's prison.

trisher Fri 12-Oct-18 13:05:54

I don't suppose if you are raped in prison it makes all that much difference if it is a penis, a bottle or some other implement that is used. In fact a penis might cause less physical damage than some of the things involved.

Baggs Fri 12-Oct-18 13:06:55

Yes, but that's kind of beside the point when the point is a penis.

Iam64 Fri 12-Oct-18 13:08:41

There is an issue here relating to men who self ID as women. This prisoner had historical convictions of a number of sexual offences against women and children, as well as offences of violence. He has now been convicted of two sexual offences against female prisoners, inside a women prison.

Women are sentenced more harshly than men, more likely to be imprisoned for non violent offences. Shop lifting is a real issue, women who are struggling to feed their children, or their drug habit are often given short prison sentences of - 6 months for shoplifting. Yes it's usually a last resort but it doesn't stop the drug use, the underlying mental health problems and it breaks up families.

Research into those who believe they are in the wrong body/gender is in its early stages. I don't sit comfortably in the anti trans lobby, nor do I accepts its ok for them to label women who are uneasy about sharing hard fought for safe spaces with men who simply say they self ID as women.
Male violence with use of male genitalia is what happened to these women in their prison. It is unlikely to have been their first experience of male violence. Women in prison are likely to have mental health problems, drug/alcohol dependency, to self harm and to have experienced abuse in their childhoods or adult lives.
I'm not suggesting that life in mens prisons is a bowl of cherries but we're discussing here, whether men who are confused about their sexuality/sexual identity/gender should be able to self ID as female in order to be placed in a women prison.
Ian Huntley is one prisoner who is currently self ID as female and asking to be transferred to a women's prison. His history includes domestic abuse, sexual assault against women in addition to the murders he is currently imprisoned for.

Iam64 Fri 12-Oct-18 13:10:05

x posted there with baggs and trisher. trisher, your suggestion that rape by penis is possibly less damaging than rape by an implement is one you need to re-consider imo.

trisher Fri 12-Oct-18 13:36:49

Why Iam64 ? There are many cases of rape (by both sexes) where a penis is not used but an implement is. Discusing one instance of rape in prison is in my opinion to dismiss without any consideration the considerable damage that is done by violent people of both sexes to other people in prison through rape and physical assaults that can be classified as rape. Of course any instance of rape is horrific, but picking out one instance and demanding that a trans person should be accommodated somewhere special is ignoring those who have been (and are being) subjected to violent assaults every day. And many of those assaults do not involve a penis but are between same sex prisoners. The damage done can be horrific, but of course this doesn't attract the press coverage and the outrage the trans issue does, possibly because some think people in prison deserve what ever is done to them.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 12-Oct-18 13:41:18

trisher, "the trans" person in question had a penis, what makes you think that is appropriate in a female prison. He is and was a fully functional male.

nanaK54 Fri 12-Oct-18 13:55:03

Grannygravy has said exactly what I was going to say

annsixty Fri 12-Oct-18 14:21:57

And a particularly ugly male at that ,he had no female features or mannerisms, he just wanted access to women, full stop.

FarNorth Fri 12-Oct-18 14:58:22

Sorry has this happened ? Is it going to happen?


And yes, trisher, I expect rape is no big deal to prisoners.

FarNorth Fri 12-Oct-18 15:02:50

Yes, trisher, there is a lot of violence in prisons. Why do you think increasing the risk of violence by admitting male-bodied people into female prisons is a good idea?

The current violence won't stop, there will just be another type of violence added in.

FarNorth Fri 12-Oct-18 15:19:53

Here is a recent article about a transwoman who is trying to have crimes committed as a man to be removed from their record.
If granted this would create a precedent for any transwoman offender or ex-offender to hide crimes that would reveal their previous identity as a man.

That would include rape.

SueDonim Fri 12-Oct-18 15:31:57

In English & Welsh law there's no such thing as rape committed by women or by implement, Trisher. It is a crime committed solely by people with male bodies.

KatyK Fri 12-Oct-18 16:15:20

He pulled the wool over the eyes of the authorities. They are too scared now to challenge anything.