Do we still set higher standards for women?

Galaxy there is nothing I would fundamentally disagree with in your post @18:02 today.

However, it seems that men very much more readily and easily commit to being away from home in the course of their employment, while women are far more likely to turn down such working even when that means turning away upward opportunity in their employment.

That is a choice that has to made in everyone's employment life when such progress is offered. The choice is one which no employer can, in reality, have an influence on.

Perhaps it reflects the difference in gender attitudes in our society.

When I had our eldest, I earned far more than my husband. I worked for a bank so also had a 2% mortgage (just when rates were very high). I really would have liked to return, at least part time, but it seemed impossible then. Why? He couldn't breastfeed!

Exactly, Galaxy. Instead of forcing women to behave like a man, make men behave like women. Like I said, equal playing field.

There are two sexes.
I am sure it is the same employment practice grandad but it is interesting that you mentioned the woman rather than the men in your team as if this is a specific problem for women. And it is because the general expectation of society is that women will be the one to not go to the late meeting, or the trip abroad, not in all cases but in most. Some families manage two parents in high level positions but anecdotally I would say that is rare, when children are young, someone 'steps back' professionally and that is usually the woman. The issue isn't with employment practices as such but how society is structured in such a way that it is almost always the women who makes the choice to step back. I feel I am not expressing this well, but I would argue if one group in society is always making that choice it's not a real choice at all.

If only it was the same for both sexes (not genders) Grandad. The major burden of caring & housework still falls upon women.

What needs to change is men’s arrangements so that it’s a level playing field. Nothing will be achieved until men start to change their life/work balance. Employers could help by promoting this. My daughter works in an environment where her employers are happy to allow all workers to have flexible timetables wherever possible. The result is that people are generally happier in their work and put more into it despite working fewer/different hours, and productivity is up as presenteeism is no longer a factor. When flexibility cannot be accommodated, employees understand why that is.

Because there are more than two genders

Anniebach, as far as I am aware there are only two human genders on this earth, male and female, why should it not to be correct to refer to them as "both genders"?

Is it now acceptable to say ‘both genders’ ?

Galaxy, in regard to your post @17:02 today, all members of the assignment teams face the same dilemmas in regard to travel and periods away from home if they wish to progress to the highest levels of Industrial Safety qualifications.

It is the same circumstance for both genders.

Why does she face that dilemma and not the young men in your workplace?

Hithere in regard to your post @15:40 today, you state that, quote ["women may want to stay home with the kids because the current job market does not allow a true family-work balance. There is no reconciliation in the workplace as it is set up under a male point of view] end quote.

In the above, I stated in an earlier post in this thread how the above is not commonly the situation as that has been demonstrated only too well by a young woman in our office. She joined us in an administration role but soon expressed a wish to be trained to join the operational side of the business. However, she became pregnant but while on maturity leave studied to gain IOSH Qualifications that has allowed her to be attached to the Assignment teams on returning to work. In taking up that opportunity she has gained a far higher salary, status, and interesting employment

To gain further training that would enable her to progress to the highest levels in an Industrial Safety career she will have to demonstrate that she is willing to travel extensively in the course of her employment. That is obviously difficult for women with a young child, but hopefully, that will be brought about with the cooperation of her home life structures and her willingness to be away from home for at times extensive periods.

There is nothing we as her employer can do to assist her in that decision, as it is an area where both genders in their home life circumstances have to decide what is paramount.

I state the above as I feel it demonstrates there are, even in these times, large psychological obstacles within many women themselves that prevent their progress in employment and the wider world. However, the opportunities are equally available, especially in employment, for women to progress in equality with their male counterparts, but it is long standing attitudes within women and wider social issues that often prevent their gender obtaining the highest personal accomplishments.

We are as the above employee's employer still waiting on her decision which is whether she can commit to extensive travel and periods away from home to further progress her career in our company. We are giving her plenty of time to make that decision as we realise it very much involves her young child, partner and probably grandparents.

The above I believe sums up the dilemma many women face in their careers and the essence of this debate.

Oooooh yes, I wonder if anything will have moved on in the next 50-100 years?

A lot of women want to be the main carers and work part-time. What they don't want is to be denigrated for it and seen as somehow 'less'. We do appear t obe our own worst enemies a lot of the time. We judge and criticise and believe that only our way is best.
As for Grandad and Jenny Formby - I think a lot of peopel believe that anyone who hasn't got a degree is not educated (not saying you Grandad) but that is how she would have been perceived, particulalry by the university Educated (Male) MP's of the day.

Eazybee,

I disagree. Women need to support each other, not blame each other . We are our worst own enemy.

Women do not desert their careers because they lack ambition. Maybe in some cases.

They may want to stay home with the kids because the current job market does not allow a true family-work balance. There is no reconciliation in the workplace as it is set up under a male point of view.

Example: you go back to work and need to decide if breastfeeding is compatible with the job.

In the US, there is only a 6 week maternity leave, 12 weeks if csection.

They are making mothers choose between your infant and your professional life.

Trisher, yes you're quite right. I've noticed the double standards right here on Gransnet. Women are all to willing to criticise and attack others who don't meet their 'standards' yet are generally far more lenient in their attitudes towards men.

Thanks for the Jennie Formby exams results Callistemon
they were very good results for 40 years ago.

Part of the problem is that many women, having demanded and got equality of education and opportunity, do well in their chosen career, have their babies, take full advantage of maternity leave and part-time working, then choose, quite deliberately, not to return to full-time work because they lack the ambition to further their careers.
It is not men deserting them and leaving them holding the baby; those women frequently have to work full-time and achieve their 'full potential'; it is the women with men who are willing to support them who deliberately choose not to further their careers.

Somebody cited part-time female doctors; my experience exactly, now taking early retirement; and also part-time teachers. None of the young teachers I worked with over the past twenty years have returned to full time work; such a waste of trained and talented women.

Grandad1943

how the above social attitudes can be changed, and in that, both genders are required to be involved in that debate

Such wise words! This lies at the heart of our discussion I believe.

The education of particular people in politics is by the by, although I understand how people get involved on a point.

The real and important discussion is about the attitudes to women and men which underlie every part of society, and which depend upon change and discussion from both women and men as Grandad1943 said.

I remain stuck with my problem concerning the example given of producing babies from many partners. The woman becomes pregnant and is literally left holding the babies. Nature cannot be changed! Her feelings, her life, each baby's future depend upon how she copes with that situation. The father remains footloose and fancy free. Perhaps if more were done to trace fathers of illegitimate children and take from them the money they should give towards child-maintenance, that might send a message about their responsibility in the circumstance. Money, though, is but one small aspect of the child's life and the mother's situation.

Yes, Grandad was mistaken but I thought it was a good idea to post that she did, in fact, leave school with good examination results.
It was not fair to Ms Formby to let that remain without correction.
She could have taken up a place at university with those results but chose not to.

I can see nothing wrong with stating the facts.

Looks like Grandad may have made a mistake, he was probably at the end of his tether with sheer frustration at the 'What a boutary' that looms large here. How we can look to Phillip May for inspiration beats me.

that's OK, varian it was worth repeating.

In fact, I don't really think she could have left school with more qualifications.

Sorry Callistemon You beat me to it.

Jennie Formby grew up with an older brother and sister in Malta, Bath and Salisbury. She went to Bath High School for Girls then St Helen and St Katharine boarding school in Abingdon, paid for by the Royal Navy from the age of 14. Formby left school with 10 O levels and 3 A levels, but chose not to go to university

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennie_Formby

No qualifications Grandad?

trisher
You raise two really good points. 1. Do we expect women to be more moral and more virtuous than men? With the example of having many children by different fathers, I think society in general certainly does hold it against a woman who has many such children. But the difference between her situation and that of the man is that she is left holding the baby. The man walks off and is free, albeit the mother may pursue him for child maintenance. It isn't quite the same situation and I think behind the judgement of morality lies the old view that the woman is the one who should be responsible for the needs of the baby. This of course is very unfair. However, the facts prove that the mother in these cases is almost always the parent who takes on the day to day nurturing of the child. There is something deep in the psyche of many men, especially when in a group, that admires the man who has his fun and gets away to lead an unburdened life. Please, gentlemen here, do not jump up to protect yourself, your very presence in this discussion has already revealed that you hold higher morals than that, imho.

Point number 2, is this out of date? well it's certainly unfair! Yes of course it is out of date. That is if it ever was completely in date. Don Giovanni was a counter-hero not an admired and wonderful hero. The Duke of Mantua ("La donna è mobile") in Rigoletto, and of course, Don Juan himself are not modern but clearly portray the evils of licentious men.

Frankly, hearing details of this egregious Prime Minister's personal life simply sickens me. It only goes to underline his despicable character and add to the overwhelming evidence that he is entirely unsuitable for his post. It is time for a vote of no confidence, on his delay to deal with COVID-19 alone.

But the bias against women is vividly illustrated by the allegations that she was only successful because she slept with a man. That's the double standards. And the ridiculous idea that the same might be said of Denis Thatcher or Philip May is touted. as a response ignoring the fact that both were highly succesful in their own field of money, so much so that they probably regarded their wives' job in politics as providing pin money.
I notice that the very vocal supporters of BJ found on other threads have not come forward to reassure us that they would vote for a woman with a similar history.
My DS with children has adjusted his work/life balance to accommodate his children, but I have noticed that some young mothers really don't want to surrender any of their role unless it suits them.