I wasn’t a Birthing Person and I didn’t Chest Feed

It's been omitted because it's been done to death on another thread and all that was left were drawn lines and the opportunity for deep offence.

Elegran, cross dressing is a very different issue to trans, which is different to drag, which is different to... and the list goes on.

Life for 'us' was much easier when there were two genders and 'we' could quietly ignore that fact that for some people there weren't. A few people, me included, were working in mental health and watching trans women forced to admit that they were really homosexual, as they were sexually attracted to men ( not all are btw), threatened with being sectioned if they didn't agree - their sexuality and gender definition being seen as a mental illness to the point that some would rather kill themselves than live like that. When you've nursed someone who has cut their own genitals off with a razor blade because they are so desperate it puts a different perspective on things - which is why 'my' beliefs don't matter in this, but theirs do. Their perception of themselves, the language they use and the campaign for inclusivity takes absolutely nothing from my lived experience as a woman.

The worry now is that this is exactly what is happening to lesbians as in the Keira bell case.

This is a speech made by Joanna Cherry QC member of Westminster parliament and relevant to our discussion.

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1359921849619140614?s=07

It relates to the Bill about maternity.

NellG

It's been omitted because it's been done to death on another thread and all that was left were drawn lines and the opportunity for deep offence.

Elegran, cross dressing is a very different issue to trans, which is different to drag, which is different to... and the list goes on.

Life for 'us' was much easier when there were two genders and 'we' could quietly ignore that fact that for some people there weren't. A few people, me included, were working in mental health and watching trans women forced to admit that they were really homosexual, as they were sexually attracted to men ( not all are btw), threatened with being sectioned if they didn't agree - their sexuality and gender definition being seen as a mental illness to the point that some would rather kill themselves than live like that. When you've nursed someone who has cut their own genitals off with a razor blade because they are so desperate it puts a different perspective on things - which is why 'my' beliefs don't matter in this, but theirs do. Their perception of themselves, the language they use and the campaign for inclusivity takes absolutely nothing from my lived experience as a woman.

This is a 4 part documentary, very informative, and makes the distinctions that you are making.

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRU9NIX0AA143z2QKukQcOqS96qriKGyw

Bridgeit

Well it is quite simple in my opinion, you either breastfeed or breastfeed & bottle feed or you bottle feed.
There may be occasions, when a premature baby receives breast milk from a milk donor because a mother is separated from their baby because of complications etc.

Ahh, I see what you mean.

The link was trying to demonstrate that this is not just happening with terms such as breast/chest. Much of the language used to describe women and their experience is being changed or attempts to do so.

See the link to Joanna Cherry Speech about the Bill being discussed in parliament today...

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1359921849619140614?s=07

Rosie51

Let's not ignore that any transwoman with a penis who rapes or assaults a woman will have her crime entered in the female statistics. If it comes to court her victim will be compelled to use the she pronoun.
thepostmillennial.com/women-compelled-by-judiciary-to-defer-to-attackers-gender-preferences-in-court

Statistics on offending rates will be totally useless, a work of fiction not fact. Fennel that is a major consideration, MtF transitioners maintain male offending rates and patterns, but now they'll be entered in the female column. Of course most MtF will not be offenders outside the normal percentages. The vile abuse from some transwomen on twitter towards J K Rowling was full of "choke on my ladydick" type comments. I've never once read of a woman threatening anyone with their vulva.

I agree that this is causing a problem with stats and consequently the perceptions about women as criminals and their offences.

Also, if the rape is of a man as well as of a woman.

Given the Rape law is about penetration of the penis and anything else is sexual assault it shows up all kinds of complications. This is perhaps why there is such an argument being made that women can have a penis!

Not sure what you're saying MBHPI - do you mean that trans men want a penis so they can rape people, or are you saying that trans women want to retain their penis so that they can rape people?

Incidentally Rosie51 there are incidents of women using their genitalia and threatening to do so to gain power and control I'm afraid. Sexual violence and exploitation is not the sole province of men. Granted the numbers are greater but assaults by women on other women and men are more frequent than you'd think.

97 % of violent sexual assaults are by men.

NellG Elegran, cross dressing is a very different issue to trans, which is different to drag, which is different to... and the list goes on.

Stonewall define cross dressing etc under the trans umbrella????

Rosie51 I think Stonewall are having identity issues too!

In all honesty, and in keeping with the original point of the thread I think the language and literacy of trans gender issues is still evolving and settling - right now it's over complex and frankly overwhelming. Eventually I feel it will settle to a mostly comfortable set of terms which we will (mostly) be OK with.

Galaxy As I said the numbers are greater. Is the 97% based on reported violent sexual assaults, successfully prosecuted sexual assaults or a generalised guesstimate based on some statistic wrangling by the people who published it? I don't imagine there's much in it numbers wise, but female sexual assault definitely exists. Just trying for a balanced view here.

It's been a long time since I have witnessed an organisation quite so challenged by those it supports. I know Twitter isnt the real world but watching Stonewall Twitter is quite astounding to be honest.

Rosie51 I just checked as I dislike being the source of misinformation. Yes, Stonewall put crossdressing under the umbrella of trans - but only as a term that trans people use themselves. For anyone not trans to assume that someone who cross dresses identifies as trans without being told that is the case would be deemed all kinds of phobic.

They really arent having the best of days. Alison Baileys case against them is to go ahead.

Hang on. How are you defining 'phobic' here?

Someone not trans, who assumes that a cross-dresser is trans is 'all kinds of phobic'?

Is a transperson who makes that assumption phobic?

Is someone who gets the definition wrong (as you did about cross-dressing coming under the definition of 'trans') phobic?

Does Stonewall get to decide who is phobic? Or do transpeople? Do they speak as one?

I have always understood 'phobic' to mean 'having an extreme fear', so I also checked, and this is the Oxford Dictionary's definition.

Someone getting a word wrong, or tripping over the plethora of definitions is not the same as someone having an extreme fear or feeling of hate.

Similarly, someone with specific concerns about a particular set of circumstances is not the same as someone with an extreme fear or feeling of hate towards the group as a whole.

I know I left this thread, but I couldn't let that one go. Of all the sophistry (and there has been plenty) on this subject on here, that really takes the biscuit.

FarNorth

^Any way of dressing for female or male goes as far as I'm concerned.^

And whatever a person's choice of clothes, they remain female or male and can't change that.

I agree.

I was wondering if men had to dress as a woman 1 day a week do you think they would realise how women are sometimes treated? Would it do them good? And improve things?

suziewoozie

I can’t recall see c** used as a prefix for men. It’s a word used almost exclusively to describe women by TRA . It’s all part of their agenda of erasing the category of natal women an£ denying the reality of their lived experiences as biological women. It’s a nonsense isn’t it that the term non- trans woman has been coined? FGS it’s a woman . What has also been omitted here is that the term c** is also trying to equate sex with gender. I’m a gender critical feminist and will never accept uncritically gender stereotypes and especially those of the typical TRA - all heels, make up and frilly dresses.

I can’t recall seeing c**man being used either. And I agree it is all about erasing the category of women.

Joanna Cherry QC speech in Westminster parliament nailed it, don’t you think?

Great point Doodledog.

A friend posted this link to me. Has anyone seen this before?

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

Galaxy

97 % of violent sexual assaults are by men.

Or if we follow the changing language, people with a penis

JaneJudge

Galaxy

97 % of violent sexual assaults are by men.

Or if we follow the changing language, people with a penis

Careful, I would guess that you are now going to be told that woman can have a penis!

But medical staff are being told to use these 'gender-neutral' terms for everyone

I believe that in fact medical staff are being told to think about using the term "chest feed" if it is appropriate for the patient and that is what the patient would prefer. They are not being told to use "gender neutral" terms for everyone per se.

Oh for goodness sake Doodledog I was making point regarding the loaded rhetoric around this issue - not personally calling anyone phobic. Quite frankly much as I find the debate interesting and am happy to support trans rights both on here and in RL the hysteria (you know the word, etymology 'of the womb' from the Greek...) on here about it is tedious to the nth degree. But if you want to read the dictionary to me, crack on.

The concept of civilised debate has clearly passed some of you by. Most of you undo your own arguments within the same paragraph!

MBHPI Well, plenty of them act like knobs already so why the hell not?

I think everyone has a different idea of civilised debate Nell, I find some of your posts less than civilised Nell.

Not sure why I felt the need to use your name twice there. Sounded more confrontational than I meant

Can I just say that I have yet to see a post from NellG which personally attacks anyone. But what would I know? I'm a mysogynistic, gas lighting woman (according to some)