Sarah Everard vigil

Nanna58

Beg to differ Suziewoozie, I think it was a fair and measured response. Police , Army, Fireservice - there are always armchair critics ( probably desk jockeys) who think they could have done better.

The point I was making was that investigations are carried out by people who were not there.

JaneJudge Oh right, get it now.

I suppose events were different in other groups. I am not in any way justifying what has happened .... I just think that the differential in events and attendance at different vigils has to be looked at as well in considering why the London one turned into such an awful mess.

The man I am furious with is the Supreme Court judge who didn’t have the b#*ls to make a ruling which could have avoided much of the problem ?

I think you’ll find that impartiality is what that’s called Suziewoozie!

There was about 40 people attending the vigil in Liverpool who left after a minutes silence. Only a small gathering were given three fixed penalty notices.

there were (rolls eyes )

Nanna58

I think you’ll find that impartiality is what that’s called Suziewoozie!

Not what CD said - she said if you weren’t there- which is clearly rubbish

She said what I’m saying , it’s all too easy to make judgements and criticisms from the sideline.

Hetty58, Thanks for the OP I totally agree with you.

It had nothing to do with his lack of b#*1s Nanna58 it would have been and was an illegal gathering due to the current restrictions.

They shouldn't have been there. They were told not to turn up but they did. My idea of a vigil is to lay flowers, light a candle and have some time for quiet reflection not waving my arms and/or a placard in the air and shouting.

It was undignified to say the least and probably only caused further upset to her family and friends.

Lucca

Ironic but of mistyping....

And no mask.

If I were cynical, I’d comment on how its hard to be seen doing good when not wearing a mask

This wasn’t a vigil it was a protest. In all the news reports I have not heard one interviewer ask why they were there when it is currently illegal to hold such large gatherings. All the blame has been placed on the Police when it was the protesters who were acting illegally. Also the politicians from all sides have jumped on the ‘bandwagon’ criticising the Police. Perhaps in the future the Police should refuse to be present at any protest and if people are injured, property destroyed etc so be it. I have every sympathy for the cause but the timing was irresponsible and illegal and designed to show the Police in a bad light. Has there been any statement from the family of the poor woman killed to support these protests?

In fact there are many pictures and videos of it as a vigil, calm, thoughtful, peaceful. A minority appear to have started behaving in a way that changed things. I am not commenting on whether the police response was OTT or not, but I think it important to acknowledge that many appear to have genuinely just been there to hold a vigil.

As far as I understand it Sisters Uncut and the Socialaist Workers Party activists were present in London (though I have no way of verifying those reports) which sort of puts another light on events and how they developed

The whole issue of why any vigils were allowed anywhere is a moot point ...under present rules it is actually not allowed. Opinions on whether this was an exception seem to vary greatly.

Suziewoozie

Unless we were at this gathering its impossible to know if differential treatment was needed.
Police have a difficult job to do and are open to criticism by everyone including those who are not doing the job or have no experience of it. On this occasion they were also putting themselves at risk from Covid infection and like many of us no doubt would have preferred not to do that unless necessary.

emmasnan

Suziewoozie

Unless we were at this gathering its impossible to know if differential treatment was needed.
Police have a difficult job to do and are open to criticism by everyone including those who are not doing the job or have no experience of it. On this occasion they were also putting themselves at risk from Covid infection and like many of us no doubt would have preferred not to do that unless necessary.

My point is how do people who weren’t there carry out an official investigation then? But they do. People who weren’t at Hillsborough eventually ( after years) carried out a proper investigation . And guess what -lots of lies and misleading statements were made by people who were there such as police, paramedics, ground officials. The fans who were there were disbelieved for years.

Is Hillsborough a fair comparison?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this particular event had been vetoed by the court.

People ignored that, and lockdown, and went anyway.

It would appear that some groups were there for another agenda that was not a peaceful vigil.

Hillsborough was a massive tragedy that came about due to a series of gross errors and resulted in 96 deaths. All of them innocent fans who were attending a football match, not a demonstration/protest/vigil.

Nobody died at this event. So is it a fair comparison? Are there other mass vigils it can be compared to instead - as the investigation and findings of how those panned out might be a better baseline.

eazybee

This was not a vigil, it was used as a protest, in defiance of a High court ruling.

The high court chose not to comment and referred it back to the police.

I don’t see any comparison between Hillsborough and the vigil/protest in London yesterday.
I don’t defend what looks like over reaction by some officers but don’t know enough to put all responsibility on the police.

On what I know so far, I see no reason for Cressida Dick to resign. To lose a female senior police officer over this would be a tragedy.

NellG

Is Hillsborough a fair comparison?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this particular event had been vetoed by the court.

People ignored that, and lockdown, and went anyway.

It would appear that some groups were there for another agenda that was not a peaceful vigil.

Hillsborough was a massive tragedy that came about due to a series of gross errors and resulted in 96 deaths. All of them innocent fans who were attending a football match, not a demonstration/protest/vigil.

Nobody died at this event. So is it a fair comparison? Are there other mass vigils it can be compared to instead - as the investigation and findings of how those panned out might be a better baseline.

The comparison is that those we should be able to rely on are capable of lying when being questioned about their behaviour. That’s all.

OK, I get you.

Let’s compare the activities of the police at the Liverpool and Rangers football games. These were huge illegal gatherings and yet little was done to prevent them.

I heard on LBC this afternoon at least two women who were at the Clapham gathering horrified at the actions of the police. Until they began to arrest some women it was a peaceful and calm vigil “with the laying for flowers and candle lighting”. Sheila Forgarty the interviewer said she was initially against the Virgil but pointed out that she had changed her mind. She seems generally to be a fairly conservative commentator.

Later in the same discussion it seems that rape cases taken to court have dropped substantially since 2016.

This is not just about one abduction and murder. It’s about women not feeling safe to walk the streets and the failure of our society to curb violence towards women both at home and on the streets.

Little seems to have changed since the 1960s. I understand that young men are also attacked for little reason. I have no solutions to offer but something within our society needs to change.

Street protest has been happening for hundreds of years. This government as others have said seem intent on denying ordinary citizens the right to protest. This is against our rights as citizens of a so called democratic country. Fascism is on the move.

ayse

Let’s compare the activities of the police at the Liverpool and Rangers football games. These were huge illegal gatherings and yet little was done to prevent them.

I heard on LBC this afternoon at least two women who were at the Clapham gathering horrified at the actions of the police. Until they began to arrest some women it was a peaceful and calm vigil “with the laying for flowers and candle lighting”. Sheila Forgarty the interviewer said she was initially against the Virgil but pointed out that she had changed her mind. She seems generally to be a fairly conservative commentator.

Later in the same discussion it seems that rape cases taken to court have dropped substantially since 2016.

This is not just about one abduction and murder. It’s about women not feeling safe to walk the streets and the failure of our society to curb violence towards women both at home and on the streets.

Little seems to have changed since the 1960s. I understand that young men are also attacked for little reason. I have no solutions to offer but something within our society needs to change.

Street protest has been happening for hundreds of years. This government as others have said seem intent on denying ordinary citizens the right to protest. This is against our rights as citizens of a so called democratic country. Fascism is on the move.

The real problem at Clapham was no football scarves and the leaders didn’t have penises. The end.

Well there’s a Celtic v Rangers match next weekend, any armchair suggestions how any crowds are controlled as it’s against Covid guidelines in Scotland?
suziewoozie that’s very simplistic and possibly sexist, the Rangers supporters included women, not all football supports are men you know.

But it was supposed to have been a vigil ayse not a protest.

This was a vigil. Although it suits a certain type of individual to think otherwise. A friend of mine lives nearby and wanted to attend - but felt too scared to because of what she anticipated would be the Police reaction.