Binders. The world has gone mad.

I don't suppose that NICE has jurisdiction over Lush and similar retail outlets, though

Exactly my point Doodledog; the very fact that NICE recognises the harm that a poorly fitting binder can do to an adult, and so recommends that they be correctly fitted as a medical aid, makes the actions of Lush selling them online, with no measuring, no specialist support and no idea as to who's buying them, all the more deplorable.

I don't suppose that NICE has jurisdiction over Lush and similar retail outlets, though. This is why I think that binders should be reclassifed as medical products (or whatever the term is) so that they have to be prescribed by a doctor.

I appreciate that if someone really wants to bind their breasts they will find the means to do so, but I don't think that that is a good reason to collude in their widespread availability. That would be akin to saying that people will take drugs anyway, so why not sell them cheaply in Lush.

As OaU says, we need to be doing more to promote body positivity in young people, and scrap the 'always affirm' approach to transitioning.

Exactly Onward, thats precisely what the new laws are aiming to do: to provide protection for young people, especially the under 18s who might be under pressure to make life changing decisions. Having a commercial enterprise like Lush providing binders to young girls, whilst at the same time offering absolutely no support or professional advice to them, is in no one's best interests other than their own. Funny how the issue of chest binders for adult transgender men have official advice from NICE about them, but not for pubescent girls.

Excellent post, OnwardandUpward.

I wish Lush was a cheap soap shop, not that I will be shopping there now.

Good to know about those new laws Chewbacca!

What we need to be teaching kids is that all bodies are good bodies, building body positivity and loving them for who they are. Hopefully then they'll not be conforming to peer pressure and feel so secure in themselves that they are confident in making the right decisions for themselves when the time comes. We are all so much more than our gender and sexuality.

Proposed new laws will protect LGBT people, and especially under 18s, ensuring individuals cannot promote or profit from this harmful practice.
The government is also keen to safeguard under 18s, who are often targeted at a young age due to their vulnerability. Future laws will therefore place a particularly strong emphasis on preventing children undergoing any practices considered to be conversion therapies.

I really hope that a cheap soap shop, selling constrictive chest binders to little girls, will be considered as aiding conversion.

trisher

I think the law of Gillick competence would apply to selling these things.

How can Gillick competence be established when they're ordered online and collected from a shop? Who gets to speak to the child face to face to establish that competence? I'd not think Lush assistants are trained professionals capable of making that assessment.

I think the law of Gillick competence would apply to selling these things

Clearly it doesn't, otherwise Lush wouldn't still be advertising them on its website. The Gillick Law of Competence was used in the Keira Bell vs Tavistock case. When KB won her case, the Tavistock and human rights group, Liberty, challenged the court's decision and were granted leave to appeal that decision. They won their appeal and The Court of Appeal ruling means that children under 16 can now take puberty blockers without their parents’ consent provided the clinician is satisfied that they are “Gillick competent.” To be Gillick competent the child needs to be of sufficient maturity and intelligence to fully understand what is being proposed, the risks involved and the implications of proceeding with treatment.

I think the law of Gillick competence would apply to selling these things.

Yes Elegran, you made the point so well.

I watched a video about binders last night and was saddened to learn of the physical discomfort these cause. One girl was saying how she cannot exercise because of not being able to take a deep breath. Another was saying her ribs had popped out and that she had developed back problems. I worry the copycat nature of kids could see them wanting to be like their friends. This is what made me think of Victorian women in corsets and I was sad that girls have to be so uncomfortable with their bodies that they would consider this kind of suffering in this day and age. I know it's a trend, but it's the health issues that worry me.

My main issue with the binders is the physical and medical problems they can cause- and my main issue with Lush providing them is that it's inappropriate.

If they were giving away socks there would be no problem, but we are talking about developing teens and binders are supposed to be properly fitted (by someone knowledgeable who has been vetted) Even IF the binder fitted in the first place, kids grow quickly and it could become dangerous quickly.

Even when a young person identifies as trans, it's not always permanent. I know two young people who transitioned back to their original gender, having thought they were meant to be the other gender. I know for many others that it's a permanent thing, it's just a shame it has to be so uncomfortable for them.

Elegran, your point about adolescents as copy cats is well made. 20 and 30 years ago, I remember break outs of cutting and scratching amongst girls in residential care establishments. Often, a new girl would arrive, she’d be understandably unsettled, anxious and sometimes suffering significant trauma. There sometimes was a history of self harm. Within days an outbreak of cutting, deep skin scratching occurred.
I’m in no way minimising the complex needs amongst this group, but echoing Elegran’s reference to mirroring, copying, joining in a group behaviour. These outbreaks usually settled within a week or so, as a result of sensible supportive intervention by the staff group.

No internet then and no snake oil salespeople encouraging these vulnerable girls

Elegran- a clear set out of the problem. Thank you.
Re Lush boycott.
Whether or not it is Lush’s first boycott is immaterial, other than that it implies they are so desperate for custom they will try any news catching idea, regardless of the potential harm they might do. Not something to be proud of.

This thread is not about a "solution to a child who insists they are not the gender they have been designated at birth" but about children who, specifically, are being facilitated by a chain of bath-and-beauty retailers to buy breast binders and collect them without the knowledge of their parents.

The solutions to that situation depend upon a complex set of data - each child will be different and their situation will need different handling. Plus, of course, if the parents are unaware that their daughter has bought one, they are not able to consider what the motive is, or to take any action to handle the situation at all..

I have not heard of Lush imposing any age limit for this purchase, so I assume they will sell to anyone who produces £7.

The pre-teen girl who is one of the first in her class to develop breasts and finds every boy in the playground is fixated on staring at them may think that strapping them tightly down will save her embarrassment. She needs to be assured that most of the other girls will soon catch up and share the limelight, and the novelty value will diminish. Meanwhile, she needs to be bought a comfortable bra of the right size to support, constrain and restrain them without crushing the life out of them, and to be encouraged to stand up straight, move naturally, and not be ashamed of her shape.

The girl a little older may be aware that she is entering into a new era in her life, when she must add to her relationships with family and friends the responsibility for her sex life and for how she is seen sexually and interacts sexually with others, and she may be overwhelmed (consciously or subconsciously) by the magnitude of that looming reponsibility. Binding down her breasts may seem the solution to their dominance over her life. She needs guiding through the changes happening in her life.

Younsters are copycats at heart. They complain about having to wear a school uniform, but if the in garment is a certain make or colour of clothes, or length of skirt or presence or absence of trouser turnups or back pockets, then the cry is, "But everybody has one!" There will be some girls who buy a breast binder because Tracy across the road has one, and it is unthinkable to not be upsides with Tracy, or perhaps Tracy hasn't got one, so here is a chance to be one ahead of her. Treatment of this motive depends on how indulgent parents are to Tracy-envy, but they should be pointing out that it is not a good reason to waste money.

The late teenager or early twenties young person who is certain of their gender and/or sexuality and their place in the mosaic of adult relationships is probably coping with the inevitable problems they meet. They are also probably quite rare.

Then we come to the girl who genuinely wishes to look, act and feel as though she were not a girl. Even this is not a single category, because the fourth dimension of time is involved. Many girls wish at some time that they were boys, for various reasons. Boys still appear to them, after all the efforts of feminists, to have a freer life. They don't have messy periods and suffer from cramps every month, they are less likely to get pinned against a wall by a randy acquaintance, they still get the more interesting jobs and are paid more for them, they are not expected to be gentle and helpful and refrain from using bad language or fists when provoked. If drastic action is undertaken to transition and then regretted at maturity, it is too late to reverse all the changes. If young girls are seriously contemplating the chain of changes which begin with binding their breats, then either their parents should be aware that they are embarking on this and be considering whether a professional opinion is needed, or they should (of their own choice or by advice by an expert) be under medical supervision by someone who can look deeply into their feelings and motives, and guide them through the maze.

None of these girls should be getting advice from a sales operative for a cosmetic firm.

It won't be the first time Lush has been through a boycott. Think it wasn't that long ago they were in the news for donating to an "anti trans" group. No idea the story behind it, just remember it going past on my news feed.

Trisher. I don't claim to have the answers. I was just sharing an experience, a snippet of real life that often doesn't get heard about.

Do I want people to be unhappy in their bodies? NO. Do I think altering those bodies make them happy, not always. There are always going to be exceptions to every rule. Everyone is an individual and there are those who regret their choices and suffer terribly.

I don't really have an answer except self love and self acceptance. We can all benefit from that, whatever our sexuality or gender.

trisher

So what's your solution to a child who insists they are not the gender they have been designated at birth OnwardsandUpward? Should they live a life which makes them deeply unhappy?

@trisher. The child is just that, and as such needs to be protected from making a premature decision that will affect the rest of their lives, until they reach an age of maturity and can make an informed decision.

?‍?

trisher

In that case isn't you stance just a waste of time and effort Mollygo Perhaps you could lobby this right wing government for more money for refuges instead. That would probably protect more women.

What ???!!!

Your not you

trisher

In that case isn't you stance just a waste of time and effort Mollygo Perhaps you could lobby this right wing government for more money for refuges instead. That would probably protect more women.

???Are you running out of steam? You post doesn’t make sense.

In that case isn't you stance just a waste of time and effort Mollygo Perhaps you could lobby this right wing government for more money for refuges instead. That would probably protect more women.

TWANW with or without surgery.
I don’t blame anyone for avoiding unnecessary surgery wherever possible.
TW could as Doodledog says above avoid putting themselves in situations which might cause fear, discomfort or even danger to natal women as most TW do already.

That logic is based on the notion that TWAW, though. If TW accepted that in the interim period where they still had male bodies and male hormones they were not women, but people who prefer to 'present' as their interpretation of the female gender, there would be fewer problems. They could continue as before, except that for the belief that they are women, and remove themselves from situations where they are changing in front of women, or carrying out intimate examinations on women who have not given informed consent to have them from a person of the opposite sex. This really would be a minor inconvenience to a small number of people.

If they don't choose to transition at all, they could carry on with this in perpetuity, and if they do, then when they have female hormones and bodies they could be considered as transitioned women and the restrictions need not apply.

25Avalon

The problem is Trisher that they can have surgery and still live a life which makes them deeply unhappy. As I said, sadly, there doesn’t seem to be a magic wand.

Of course they can and having surgery is a huge step which needs a long period of consideration. And yet I have seen many posts on GN that insist if someone doesn't have surgery they cannot be considered to be the gender they want. It seems a bit contradictory to me to insist it has to be done if you know there are real problems afterwards.

I think the 'only affirm' approach is almost guaranteed to result in children (and/or adults) who have complex other issues being given the wrong treatment.

I don't know the answers, but I really believe that we should be asking more questions before more lives like that of OnwardandUpward's friend are ruined.