Binders. The world has gone mad.

Not wanting her to go to a cosmetics company to be given a binder is quite reasonable, I think.
That isn't denying or minimising or saying she must get on with things.

I was just wondering what would you do if you had a teenager who was deeply unhappy about her body and you wanted to help her? Allowing or even helping her to explore how she feels by giving her a simple binder that makes her feel more comfortable is apparently abuse. What then I wonder is totally denying her her right to feel as she does, ignoring her distress, and simply telling her she should put up with things and get over it? I know which I think is worse.

What I really don't understand is, with so many young females declaring themselves trans or non-binary requiring binders and the like, why aren't we seeing lots of middle aged women doing likewise now that it's socially acceptable? We're constantly told this is not a new phenomenon so there should be an equal number of older women who feel the same.

It's a mess, isn't it?

Now that the BBC is free of the shackles of Stonewall I'd love to see a thorough investigation into everyone who stands to make money from this. Whether that is selling binders, pharmaceuticals or courses of counselling of children/training of professionals.

I'm not saying that any of these things should necessarily be stopped, but that we should be made aware of the chain of profit and where it stops, as well as of links to any other organisations that may be involved. I suspect that the commercial channels will have their hands tied here because of reliance on advertising.

Calistemon can you imagine the furore that would cause?
I’d say yes, but I expect the pupil would immediately resort to claiming bigotry or transphobia or become non-binary-girl during the week and boy at weekends for example. Then there would be claims of how dangerous it would be aforesaid pupil to be in an all male establishment.

Imagine a girl working to get into an all girls school then declaring at 11, that she is a boy or non-binary. The school feels obliged to kow-tow to the demands that, though the pupil looks like a girl, all other pupils must remember to refer to her as ‘him’ or ‘they’.

That is a very interesting point, Mollygo.
Should that pupil be transferred to the boys' school?

Teenage girls and preteens are impressionable and that’s not an insult to that demographic, it’s a fact.
Usually their impressionable-ness is directed by fashion, by what their favourite singer says or what they see on TV.
Now they are influenced by the attention some groups of people are getting for declaring their ‘difference’. Not only is this difference making them part of the ‘in’ crowd, but also as I’ve seen happening, it gives them power.
Imagine a girl working to get into an all girls school then declaring at 11, that she is a boy or non-binary. The school feels obliged to kow-tow to the demands that, though the pupil looks like a girl, all other pupils must remember to refer to her as ‘him’ or ‘they’. They lecture the 11 year olds on the rights of this child and advocate that it’s OK if others want to follow suit.
Having achieved success, the changeling then bullies other girls, threatening those who don’t wish to be party to her demands with report if they ‘misgender’,
being excluded from the ‘in’ group if they don’t adopt a boys name, or get a chest binder same as her and sending inappropriate messages and images via text to those who have ‘joined’. Parents report this.
The school has no real idea what to do about this without being slated in the newspaper for being bigoted or phobic.
One child who was in the group is so desperate to leave that she self harms.
Not impressionable?

Am I wrong in thinking that you are in the USA, Hithere?

Hithere

Same as blanket statement that girl teenagers are very impressionable - you are right!

As human beings, we all display different degrees of the same characteristic

We do, but by definition adults have more life experience and maturity.

Teenage girls, particularly those at the younger end of their teens, when breast-binding is more likely to happen, are still in need of adult guidance, and IMO this responsibility should not be taken from the parents and given to retail outlets who are in the business of making profit.

I know of many cases of teenagers who are non binary and want binders.
Some talk to their parents, child and parent go to doc and the doc said to ahead,give guidelines and no permanent damage will happen

All I asked was whether you worked in this field and had expert knowledge which you could impart to the rest of us.

go to the doc - a GP, a psychologist, psychiatrist or a surgeon?
It is not clear.

Hithere I thought the subject of discussion was whether a High Street cosmetics firm should be selling these binders to young teenagers without the knowledge or consent of their parents.

It is at best irresponsible, at worst exploitation and grooming of children which is illegal.

*I know of many cases of teenagers who are non binary and want binders.
Some talk to their parents, child and parent go to doc and the doc said to ahead,give guidelines and no permanent damage will happen*

To be fair, Hithere, if you post things like this, you are setting yourself up as someone who not only knows 'many' non-binary young people, but who also knows that they bind their breasts and has information about their communication with parents and doctors. It does suggest that you want us to know that you have have professional knowledge, or at least that you are more of an expert than most of us.

For clarity, my own children are late 20s-30, so it was a decade or so ago when they left for university and before that that their friends were discussing their orientation etc.

In my professional life I know/have known older teens/young adults who are non-binary, but AFAIK (using the evidence of my eyes) they have not bound their breasts. In my role it would not be appropriate for me to discuss their sex lives or orientation, though.

Hithere

Try to discredit me asking me if I work on this field and what my area of expertise is -

How many of you are in this field with current updated experience? A low % I bet

You can still post and express your opinion politely, just like I am doing.

Why am I trying to discredit you?

I am not an expert but remember the teenage years, have daughters and granddaughters and am interested in someone else's views who may have current updated experience of many cases of non-binary teenagers through their work with them.

Oh, the teenagers I know are pretty open about their orientation and sexuality, and were when my own were teens. I often got told more than I felt I needed to know?. I definitely don't think that is a new thing.

I only know one who defines as non-binary/gender neutral though, and they didn't use a binder. It just seems a bit of a statistical blip for one person who doesn't work in the field to know 'many' teenagers who not only define that way but also go to those extremes, which is why I was interested.

Same as blanket statement that girl teenagers are very impressionable - you are right!

As human beings, we all display different degrees of the same characteristic

Terrible grammar in my post but you get the gist.

Actually there is quite a lot of research that shows that it is teenage girl who are most at risk from social contagion than other cohorts. Making blanket statements that teenage girls are very strong is just nonsense. Some are some arent.

How strange.
I have a teen living here and I know none of that mindset.

I know many cases due to my age range and knowing parents with kids in these ages.

Teenagers expressing their opinion about their orientation and sexuality and preferences on life is way more common than what this board thinks (thanks for that!)

Saying teenage girls are impressionable is an insult to that demographic

Yes, teenagers and adults are impressionable, we are human beings

Teenage girls are very strong, given the challenges they grow up with.
Even more if they speak up about controversial subjects like this

I'm not remotely an expert. I was just asking what has led to you knowing 'many' girls who use binders to see if there is a link between the reason for you doing so and the reason for their condition.

Isn't it usual for those without experience or expertise to question those who have it? That's how we learn, surely?

Try to discredit me asking me if I work on this field and what my area of expertise is -

How many of you are in this field with current updated experience? A low % I bet

You can still post and express your opinion politely, just like I am doing.

Caleo

Not restricting their freedom - I would say give them another option they can exercise if they want.

Those girls are not forced to go and grab one - it is their choice

Calistemon

^I know of many cases of teenagers who are non binary and want binders.^

Is this your area of expertise and do you work in that field Hithere?

May I also ask you, Hithere, what it is that these children have in common other than that they identify as non-binary? Are they Autistic? Do they have a history of sexual abuse? Eating disorders?

How is it that you know so many? I'm guessing that there must be a reason why they are in the place they are in (which is probably what they have in common), for you to be aware of this aspect of their lives, and I'm wondering if the reason for that could explain why they feel as they do.

Yesterday an ex colleague told me that her Gdd of nearly 13 has really taken on board all the trans stuff she’s hearing at school, and is insisting on being called by a completely different boy’s name.

They are just going along with it. Since she’s never remotely shown any such tendencies before, they rather assume it’s an aspect of adolescent rebellion, plus a desire to shock and appal the boring, stuffy old parents/grandparents.

So they’re resolutely not showing any shock or appalled-ness.
‘That’s fine, dear,’ is more the line they’re taking.