Binders. The world has gone mad.

So how many of you gender critical feminists agree that women are to blame for boys wanting to change gender?
And are fathers to bame for girls?

trisher perhaps you need to read and retain posts more accurately. It was me that suggested I thought Onwardand Upward was 'musing' (my choice of word, I could have said considering or wondering, giving thought to) about the various influences on children. I do not have a pathway into her brain, it was my conjecture from her post. You snipe away, but it might 'be kind' if you'd snipe at the correct person?
We've had 'real women' from you now we get 'real feminists' will 'real transpeople' be next?

Elegran given the amount of shit which has been thrown at me on these threads that's pretty funny!

Keep on distracting by discrediting posters, Trisher. If you drive them all off you'll have the podium to yourself.

Trans people aren't "because" trans people just are

It's a slur on single mothers and it's transphobic an apology to both of those parties would seem to be in order instead of the rather pathetic "I was just musing". Why would the extended family of any single mother be less varied or less extensive than that of a 2 parent family? Indeed they are sometimes more because the child has more social activity outside the home. It's not a reasonable premise and it's certainly not something any real feminist would regard as acceptable. Women are now to blame for transwomen- honestly???

Missing out the relevant part so as to concentrate on applying maximum critical spin to your own choice of inferences from another part of a post is another tactic much used by seasoned debaters to score match points in a competitive contest.

To me the sentence ignored by Trisher "There are many complex relationships and I cannot begin to fathom the complexities." is the most relevant part of O&U 's post, and something that could be tacked onto almost all the posts in this and many other threads, without being out of place or contradicting anything else that is in the post.

Oh dear- I mean all genders . I am new to learning about all this and don't mean to upset anyone.

I mean that children seek to identify with someone, whoever that might be. It can work many ways. If a child has lots of role models of both genders they are able to have lots of role models to choose from, whatever their parental status.
Ideally children will have a rich tapestry of family- Aunties, Uncles, Cousins, Grandparents as well as their Mother and Father, no matter what type of relationship status the parents have.

Thanks Doodlebug, I am not deterred I have trans friends and relatives, so my intentions came from a good place even if some people take it the wrong way.

I like the saying "it takes a village to raise a child" We can all look out for kids wellbeing. The more people who do that, the better. There are too many people these days who don't want to "get involved" in anything.

No harm in making the point again, Rosie I would have made it too had I not been occupied since 11 am in meeting real life friends in real time.

Should have refreshed before I posted, you've made the point already Doodledog

The premise is that single mothers cause booys to be transgender.

I really don't get that as the premise from the sentence OnwardandUpward wrote. It seemed to me she was musing over many possible influences on when a child might identify closer to its opposite sex.

OaU please don't be deterred from posting by this spurious attack on your integrity. Just read back and judge for yourself whether the attacker is in any position to cast aspersions on others' logic or ability to formulate an argument.

trisher you are very keen to conflate homophobia and the questioning of anything to do with trans issues, but the two things are entirely different. One is about sexuality and the other isn't. One is about phobia and the other isn't. One would erase women from the language, and from statistics about things that impact on our lives, and the other isn't.

Suggesting reasons for the sudden upsurge in children claiming to be the opposite sex is not unreasonable, whether or not they are shown to be true when research has been done. I haven't seen any attempts at suggesting reasons from TRAs, other than 'it's a feeling', 'they just know', which is an entirely useless as a theory, particularly without any sort of definition of what it is that transchildren are supposed to know that they are.

Elegran

I think that you are far too quick to assume that someone saying "What if a child may . . ?" and following it with
"There are many complex relationships and I cannot begin to fathom the complexities." is apportioning blame.

Onward and Upward is not being anywhere near as apportionative (to invent a suitable word) as you yourself are being - and frequently are when replying to other people's posts. It may be because one tactic of seasoned debaters is to discredit the opposition.

What she actually said Elegran is What if there is no Dad on the scene, so he wants to be a lady like Mum ?
So good try at missing out the relevant bit, but there is no ambiguity. The premise is that single mothers cause booys to be transgender. If you have evidence for that please post it. But it is just as transphobic, as the assertion that controlling mothers made boys gay was homophobic. I see you didn't comment on that

I think that you are far too quick to assume that someone saying "What if a child may . . ?" and following it with
"There are many complex relationships and I cannot begin to fathom the complexities." is apportioning blame.

Onward and Upward is not being anywhere near as apportionative (to invent a suitable word) as you yourself are being - and frequently are when replying to other people's posts. It may be because one tactic of seasoned debaters is to discredit the opposition.

Elegran

I thought we were not in favour of throwing around unfounded accusations of transphobia, but some posters seem to use that as a default response.

Was blaming mothers because their sons were gay not homophobic then Elegran? Because that is the parallel I drew.. Blaming single mothers for transgender sons is transphobic if blaming mothers for gay sons is homophobic. Or do you believe neither is?

Mollygo

Elegran you are so right, but think positively. By allowing trisher to rubbish other posters we are keeping her active.
I’ll pop back on here after work to see where she’s got to next.

It isn't rubbishing other posters to point out that they are castigating a whole section of women who raise their children independently. Blaming them for trans children is as I said similar to the homophobic beliefs once held where mothers were blamed because their sons were gay.

I thought we were not in favour of throwing around unfounded accusations of transphobia, but some posters seem to use that as a default response.

Elegran you are so right, but think positively. By allowing trisher to rubbish other posters we are keeping her active.
I’ll pop back on here after work to see where she’s got to next.

Elegran

Well, clearly, in your view Trisher the whole blame for everything under the sun is squarely on the shoulders of whichever poster you are currently rubbishing, so it makes a change when someone wonders - just wonders - whether perhaps someone with a single parent to adopt as a role model might lean toward accepting all of that person's attributes as models.

Even if a male child copies and adopts the characteristics of his mother it doesn't make him trans. It simply makes him a sympathetic and caring man. I thought we were all in favour of challenging gender stereotypes anyway.

Well, clearly, in your view Trisher the whole blame for everything under the sun is squarely on the shoulders of whichever poster you are currently rubbishing, so it makes a change when someone wonders - just wonders - whether perhaps someone with a single parent to adopt as a role model might lean toward accepting all of that person's attributes as models.

OnwardandUpward

Thanks Doodledog
Yes Elegran, good question. I think what if a child may be conditioned into saying they are the other gender and then its reinforced by "Johnny's Mum" who always secretly wanted a daughter? What if there is no Dad on the scene, so he wants to be a lady like Mum ?

There are many complex relationships and I cannot begin to fathom the complexities.

When I was younger I often muttered "I wish I was a boy" because I saw my brother having fabulous opportunities that I didn't have. But I didn't EVER think of having body modifications and becoming a man or boy.

I like being female and I accept myself, flaws and all. I am sure life used to be simpler.

Well how many people can you condemn in one post? There is no evidence whatsoever that being a single mother influences transgenderism. Nor that any woman is making her son into a daughter because she wanted one. Notice the two similarities there? It's always the mother's fault! It's not that long ago that gay men were said to be the result of controlling mothers. Now apparently we are responsible for transpeople. It's plainly transphobia just like blaming the mother for a gay man was homophobia.

Thanks Doodledog
Yes Elegran, good question. I think what if a child may be conditioned into saying they are the other gender and then its reinforced by "Johnny's Mum" who always secretly wanted a daughter? What if there is no Dad on the scene, so he wants to be a lady like Mum ?

There are many complex relationships and I cannot begin to fathom the complexities.

When I was younger I often muttered "I wish I was a boy" because I saw my brother having fabulous opportunities that I didn't have. But I didn't EVER think of having body modifications and becoming a man or boy.

I like being female and I accept myself, flaws and all. I am sure life used to be simpler.

I read that binders cannot be used safely except for people with very small breasts, anyway.

Apparently what binders will do is make it harder to remove all the breast tissue safely, if the person then decides to go for a Mastectomy later on. There seem to be many health problems caused by them, but maybe the girls who are caging themselves in them feel it's worth being in pain, at risk of skin infections, unable to exercise or move freely.

I suppose there must be special clinics for this kind of thing, where the girls could get measured properly and monitored, get support etc. This would weed out those who truly have gender issues from those who are following a fad and hopefully protect young and vulnerable kids from giving in to peer pressure.

I know a young lady who dressed androgynously and lived as the other gender for a year, but then transitioned back. I'm not sure if it was peer pressure or just curiosity, but she's living as a woman again and recently had a baby. Its probably a good thing she didn't manage to modify her body as it has very successfully birthed a healthy baby that she's now breastfeeding.

The ticking of the biological clock is a funny one. It can be surprising!

I also wonder, Onward and Upward, at what point in their short lives, and why, some children go from a new baby with a body full of cells with XX or XY chromosomes but no thoughts at all as to what either sex or gender is all about, to a child who is convinced that he/she is not the male or female that everyone around them has always said they are.

What is it that they believe is male or female that they deny having or feeling? What do they expect to have or feel as a male or female, which they don't detect in themselves?

If they observe their mother or father but don't identify with them, do they deduce that they are the other sex/gender? And what if there are older siblings, does their sex influence the gender bias of a younger one?

And what if parents decide to raise their children with no gendering at all, to the point of not giving the child any clues even to which sex its chromosomes are - but the parents themselves cannot help being of one sex or other, so when/if the child identifies with the parent it is most in tune with, is it ikely to identify with their sex and gender as well?

There are many complex relationships involved.