University degrees

I’m sorry to digress but I couldn’t believe, re-reading this thread, that it’s 15 years since my son graduated. It really stopped me in my tracks when I realised. And I’m as proud of his achievement today as I was on the day of the ceremony. Sorry again folks!

No need to be sorry, GSM. It is an achievement to be proud of, and it makes me so cross when people try to diminish the achievements of the young.

It happens every year when exam results are announced, and it happens over and over on here. It’s one thing to question the system, but another to suggest that a degree is worth no more than O levels of old! Sometimes I think it’s just that people forget that as we grow older most of us learn more about our subject - either because we are interested in it or because we practice it at work - so of course we have more knowledge than a fresh-faced 21 year old straight from university. And yes, they can be cocky - they are too young to know what they don’t know, but most of them will learn, just as we did. Anyway, listening to some older people crow about their own educational achievements, it’s clear that they are not alone in thinking they are special .

Also education is one of those areas where everyone thinks they are an expert. It is a huge and complex sector, and even if we all had 13 children who had been through it, the vicarious understanding that that would give us wouldn’t scrape the surface. Our own experience is decades out of date.

Some of the preposterous things I hear, now that I’m mostly retired and hear stories about people’s grandchildren are amusing, but others are very unfair.

M0nica

Universities at every level are under pressure from their administrators to squeeze grades upwards.

DS is a lecturer at a top Russell Group university and his faculty are in the top 5 in their subject in the world and they feel the pressure. The admin and marketing people think that it helps to attract foreign students who pay far more in fees than home students.

I think, definitely here in Ireland, Government want to attract FDI by stating we have amongst the best educated young people in Europe.

Unfortunately it means that Universities are now viewed in a very utilitarian way, almost like training schools for the Labour Market. Life skills such as creativity and analytical thinking are often viewed as secondary to that.

Third level education seems to be rapidly evolving into provision of professional training as opposed to an academic education in order to push as many young people as possible into that system.

Degrees have been devalued and vocational and on the job training almost disappeared.

In my view that has brought problems and widened the gap between the haves and have nits.

Aagh have nots!!

Thanks Doodledog.? I know how hard he worked for his degree which had a fairly high dropout rate, partly due to it being a difficult subject and partly due to the ‘sink or swim’ attitude with very few tutorials. He very rarely saw his tutor, whose priority was research. He said quitting wasn’t an option but it was tough. I wasn’t able to afford to give him a private education and he went to a rather grotty comp. He is now a partner in a big international law firm. It seems to me that those universities such as Oxbridge which operate a system of regular tutorials in small groups must provide a much more supportive system than what my son experienced at the LSE. However he doesn’t regret choosing the LSE over Oxford as he felt it made him more self-reliant and gave him a more commercial outlook.

The recently appointed new Principal and VC of the University of the Highlands and Islands has decided that they won't offer any more vanity courses (sic) and that their curriculum will be changed; his words: We’re not here to study something for which there is no direct employment, growing market or sector.

I know its maybe not on the spirit of the site to say so, but he is an idiot. But he has backtracked.

That's such an idiotic thing to say and quite worrying tha the Principal of a University should have such a narrow view.

And he is turning down a useful source of income. Many first wave graduates (1960s/1970s) often go back to university to study a subject that interests them, for a year.

It is what I did, but mine was a professional course. I studied away from home but my doorstep university offered several such degrees. Most of whose students were over 60.

When I discussed with DS, whether I would be accepted as it was not a subject I had studied at university before, although I had done a lot of courses. His response was ' If you can pay the fees, you will get on it', and I did, although I did actually know rather more than some of the other students coming startight from their first degree.

What are 'vanity courses'?

I know that there is a school of thought that all education should be job-related and that there is 'no point' in taking courses that don't lead directly into work. I disagree, but there are still those who think that way.

I'm surprised at a VC thinking like that, and a bit concerned that someone at such a high level in a university should be so blinkered, and not realise the value of education for its own sake.

Doodlebug My mother was like that, whenever I signed up for a university course she would ask me how it would help my career and never understood the idea of doing it because I was just interested in a subject and wanted to know more. She understood evening classes and weekends away for 'hobby' interests, but not university study.

Education for its own sake is fine if you can afford it, take a degree course at 60 that is not related to any employment ambitions.
At 18 yrs a qualification related to employment is highly desirable, it enables you to pay the rent and buy food, the alternative is sponging off a parent or the state.

You're wrong there Katie59

Education is especially important for the young as it teaches them how to think and introduces them to aspects of the world they would never have experienced otherwise.

I think you are mixing up education and training.

e.g. a degree in classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy can make you Prime Minister.

Alegrias1

e.g. a degree in classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy can make you Prime Minister.

?

We are going round in circles a bit now, but that did make me laugh.

A very useful degree for someone in politics!
Democracy started in Athens.

classical philosophy
Although perhaps the idea of engaging brain before mouth didn't get through.

Is it not easier to just do the appearance on HIGNFY rather than the classics degree.

Calistemon

A very useful degree for someone in politics!
Democracy started in Athens.

Don’t think democracy is high on the agenda of the present lot.

Alegrias1

e.g. a degree in classics, ancient literature and classical philosophy can make you Prime Minister.

Not too many openings for PM but I guess a good qualification for a teacher.

You're not being serious, are you?

My MIL kept sending nephew, who has a history degree, job adverts for history teachers.

He actually works in the provision of social housing, but heigh ho.

I still don't know what 'vanity courses' are, so I Googled.

It seems that they are not courses taken to appease the vanity of the student, but to add to the offer of the university, so it is their vanity that is the issue. Courses that will only ever attract 2 or 3 students add to the lists of degrees on offer and make the university seem more wide ranging.

If the degrees are basically made up of modules that already exist on other courses, there won't be much by way of additional costs - just a bit of extra admin - so why not offer them? I'm very much thinking aloud here, but if, say, only a couple of people wanted to study a particular country in depth, why couldn't they take modules on the language, the literature, the history, the politics, the costume, the geography, geology etc all from different courses? So long as they were put together so that there was clear progression from one level to the next and there were enough credits at each level, why not?

The trouble is that all of this becomes more of a chore as universities have become businesses, and departments have their own budgets, so are often forced into competition with one another, and this makes cross-Faculty collaboration less likely.

Alegrias1

You're not being serious, are you?

My MIL kept sending nephew, who has a history degree, job adverts for history teachers.

He actually works in the provision of social housing, but heigh ho.

Tongue in cheek, in an effort to find some useful career other than PM

Katie59 ?

I think almost anybody is more useful to society than our current PM.

You're not being serious, are you?

Of course, Alegrias, absolutely serious.

Doodledog

What are 'vanity courses'?

I know that there is a school of thought that all education should be job-related and that there is 'no point' in taking courses that don't lead directly into work. I disagree, but there are still those who think that way.

I'm surprised at a VC thinking like that, and a bit concerned that someone at such a high level in a university should be so blinkered, and not realise the value of education for its own sake.

I saw a programme about the code breakers at Bletchley Park. They said the people recruited came from various backgrounds e.g. people who did puzzles, scrabble etc. The part I thought was interesting was that they said they had a lot of drama graduates and speech therapists as they had alot of understanding of how language is used.

I bet no one thought doing a drama degree would help to win the war.