Assigned female at birth

trisher

But if you deny women the right to use the language they choose Doodledog and there are numerous posts objectng to people with a cervix etc. and you think they are women, aren't you discriminating against them? Aren't you saying they don't deserve to be listened to? Aren't you making them the wrong sort of woman?
And as for the insults posted about intersectional feminists are you saying they aren't there?

I am not denying anyone anything. I am asking that the terminology that has been used for hundreds of years (eg 'woman', 'female') should not be expanded to make it meaningless. I do not ask this to discriminate, but to keep the right to discuss things that concern women in terms that are understood by all. Referring to transpeople as such will not alter that, and would only be discriminatory if the subject matter were such - the terminology itself is not.

How does any of the above suggest that I don't think that anyone shouldn't be listened to?

How does any of the above suggest that I think that there is such a thing as the 'wrong sort of woman'? I don't even know what that means.

Re 'intersectional feminists', I have often posted that IMO a theoretical discussion of waves of feminism is simply a useful way of describing broad schools of thought, and not a set of rules for belonging to such a school. I see it as akin to terms such as 'functionalist sociologists', or Marxist historians'. People don't get together and decide what the thinking should be, or how one tenet of belief fits with others - the terms are retrospectively applied to very general philosophies, and within these groupings people can have very different points of view. I have seen the term 'intersectional feminism' used on here as though it is the latest fashion, that has swept away all that came before, which is clearly nonsense - as I say, it is just a way of describing relatively disparate points of view. What I do take issue with, is the idea that feminism is not about female rights, and is actually about the fight against injustice across the board. Clearly, injustice should be fought against, but not in the name of feminism - or not unless the injustice is against women, and happens because of their sex.

A good example of this would be the current situation in competitive sport, where Lia Thomas is not only stealing medals from women, but also making them uncomfortable by flaunting male sex organs in the changing rooms, as though to reinforce the sex differences that have deprived the female swimmers of their rights.

Support for this situation is not feminism, however it is dressed up, and I will not be gaslighted into believing that it is. Saying this is not, IMO, insulting, and if you disagree I am sorry, but I cannot in conscience take it back.

Oops not find fund

In fairness I do not think that a trans woman should be allowed into an all female refuge either.

Maybe it’s time for the trans community to get together and find trans refuges?

After all women have fought hard and find raised for years for our safe places.

Mollygo if they insisted they were a man, then the correct and kind thing to do would be to give them information on the nearest male refuge.

Love this one trisher. You must be getting desperate.
So if a transman is a woman, why can't they ask to be called chest feeder or addressed as assigned female at birth why can't they be called a birth person? If you support women why would you censor the language they choose?

The tm can ask to be called what they want- chest-feeder, bleeder or whatever. It can be written on their records in CAPITALS . or typed in bold print when they go to have the treatment they need because they are female, but does that give them the right to insist that every other adult human female is labelled the same? Are you saying you really think they have that right?
Back to your hoary old chestnut.
If a transman tried to access a woman's space because they had been abused. They were very tall and quite heavily built and quite masuline in appearance would you let them in?
You mean like your tall, heavily built, muscular, deep voiced friend that you often bring into your posts?
If a transman arrived at a woman’s refuge appearing as you say, she would know her appearance might be questioned. You may think that’s wrong, but it’s true and if you want that changing, do something about it.
She would undoubtedly make it quite clear without being asked that she was female, so yes I’d allow her in.
If she’s adamant that she’s a man, regardless of her appearance, am I to accuse her of lying? I would point out that this is a woman’s refuge (clarifying it if she, like you, didn’t understand that a woman is an AHF).
If she remained adamant that she is a man, then no I would not let her in.

Some of the insults were there and had to be taken down as they violated guidelines.

If people can't keep within guidelines that are very basic rules for honest and polite discussion then that's worrying when it comes to whether every woman can feel safe having their voice heard.

Women shouldn't have to moderate who they speak to, simply to prevent being misrepresented and insulted unfairly.

Women should feel safe in discussion in a forum primarily used by women, with guidelines laying out what makes it a safe space for women to be heard

But if you deny women the right to use the language they choose Doodledog and there are numerous posts objectng to people with a cervix etc. and you think they are women, aren't you discriminating against them? Aren't you saying they don't deserve to be listened to? Aren't you making them the wrong sort of woman?
And as for the insults posted about intersectional feminists are you saying they aren't there?

Hi VeS
Your implications are a way round accusing people of lying and you deliberately use an offensive word-nice behaviour for someone who says they work with children.
1. No one on GN has said trans-women do not need safe spaces. Only that they should not be in women’s (AHF) safe spaces where their presence could cause added trauma to women who have gone there for safety.

2 . Acceptance of being trans makes things easier and that’s good but doesn’t change their biological sex. I hope you’re not suggesting that they should be given damaging and potentially irreversible chemical or physical alterations to their bodies to support their chosen gender.
Forcing others to accept or be punished for e.g. for not using ‘correct’ pronouns as shehes are doing at a local school is discrimination by trans agains non trans.

3. Actually, in accusing others of saying gender doesn’t matter, (please cite quote where that has been said on GN), what you are really saying is that sex doesn’t matter. If you think that’s true and sex doesn’t matter, why are they so anxious to change?
Your final post about this is so waffly it doesn’t benefit your point.

trisher

Oh wow! so much hedging and refusing todiscuss gender but insisting on introducing sex. OK here's my perception of it.
There have been many posts on these threads stating categorically that transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men. Which for the gender critical means they must remain women. But just not women who count. The wrong sort of women!

I wasn't hedging. I just don't understand what you are asking. I pointed this out, so you could have simply explained more clearly instead of accusing me of hedging.

You keep using the phrase 'wrong sort of women', but it is meaningless to me. Women are adult human females, and there is no right or wrong sort. It's like saying 'wrong sort of panda' or 'wrong sort of giraffe'. Are you referencing the LP 'wrong sort of Jew' trope that was so over-used a while ago? I'm struggling to make a link with anything helpful, but at least I'm trying, and not 'wowing' or accusing you of hedging.

Mollygo

trisher@9:53 The wrong sort of women

VioletSky@9:59
There is only the right sort of woman and the wrong sort of women now.
Trisher and VS now classify women as the right sort and the wrong sort.

Should we be worried? Is this personal denigration of those who recognise women as adult human females?

*trisher@9:53 transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men*

Hurray something I can agree on.
But I am preempting the transphobia accusation by reiterating that I have no issue with people being or declaring they are men or women as long the ill-intentioned among them do not use that claim to cheat in sport, gain access to women’s (AHF) safe spaces or lie by omission to obtain something which is not rightfully theirs.

So if a transman is a woman Mollygo why can't they ask to be called chest feeder or addressed as assigned female at birth why can't they be called a birth person? If you support women why would you censor the language they choose?
If a transman tried to access a woman's space because they had been abused. They were very tall and quite heavily built and quite masuline in appearance would you let them in?

I think you put that better than me trisher

Galaxy

Look trisher some people believe in an inner gender feeling others dont. Thats not hedging. What gender people feel they are is of no concern of mine.
Many women are religious I am not.

Gender is a social construct that exists Galaxy you cannot just ignore it because you don't like it or it makes it difficult for you to reconcile your beliefs. People in everyday life are assigned gender roles for some that matches their physical sex for others it doesn't and they feel they need to change. But you can't get away with saying it's just a feeling.

There are 3 huge mistakes that are being made.

1. That only cis women have need of safe spaces

2. That trans women are growing up socially male, and that their experience matches a male identity.

3. That gender doesn't matter.

1 ignores the need of trans women or any other group to have access to safe spaces.

2 ignores that the increase in acceptance amongst families and young people means that trans people are growing up in the social circles relevant to them

3 ignores that we all use gender to express our sex. Ignores that we all assess others gender identity socially and ignores that gender identity isn't fixed for any of us, we have moved and widened the goal posts and gender allows us to measure that.

trisher@9:53 The wrong sort of women

VioletSky@9:59
There is only the right sort of woman and the wrong sort of women now.
Trisher and VS now classify women as the right sort and the wrong sort.

Should we be worried? Is this personal denigration of those who recognise women as adult human females?

*trisher@9:53 transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men*

Hurray something I can agree on.
But I am preempting the transphobia accusation by reiterating that I have no issue with people being or declaring they are men or women as long the ill-intentioned among them do not use that claim to cheat in sport, gain access to women’s (AHF) safe spaces or lie by omission to obtain something which is not rightfully theirs.

Look trisher some people believe in an inner gender feeling others dont. Thats not hedging. What gender people feel they are is of no concern of mine.
Many women are religious I am not.

Mostly I find that , unless a person is causing harm to another person, folks generally speaking are accepting to other humans regardless of titles, gender, preference , love lives , habits etc.
Live & let live, as they saying goes ‘ Don’t sweat the small stuff ‘

That's so true VioletSky and for the gender critical
transmen are the wrong sort of women, and are not permitted o use language they prefer, and Intersectional femnists are the wrong sort of women who get called mysogynistic and heaps of other insults. So that's two sets of women discriminated against who will be next?

There is only the right sort of woman and the wrong sort of women now.

If you are the wrong sort of women your feelings, needs, opinions and voice aren't heard and your character may be fairly assassinated

Oh wow! so much hedging and refusing todiscuss gender but insisting on introducing sex. OK here's my perception of it.
There have been many posts on these threads stating categorically that transwomen are not women.
In which case transmen cannot be men. Which for the gender critical means they must remain women. But just not women who count. The wrong sort of women!

trisher transmen are transmen. Their biological sex is female. I wouldn't presume to speak for any or all transmen, but I have read from some they consider themselves to have a masculine gender identity, and are happiest when people assume they are of the male sex, even though they are biologically still female.
A sort of reversal of Debbie Hayton, a transwoman who always states she is a male biologically, even though she has had transgender surgery and likes to be perceived as being female.

VS transwomen like all males have breast tissue and may get breast cancer. I believe transwomen's risk of breast cancer is substantially more than males who don't take female hormones. Of course this is an increase on a very small initial risk. Transmen have a lower risk of breast cancer than other females if they have had a double mastectomy as part of their transition, but should still be aware there is a risk however small. Sex at birth combined with trans identity and hormone treatments being taken on medical records should help ensure best practice treatment for all.

VioletSky

trisher I highlighted a problem with that thinking somewhere in that, trans women may very well need screening for breast cancer if they have breast tissue from transition. So when it comes to medical needs using the sex they were assigned at birth won't actually work

???

trisher I highlighted a problem with that thinking somewhere in that, trans women may very well need screening for breast cancer if they have breast tissue from transition. So when it comes to medical needs using the sex they were assigned at birth won't actually work

*You've missed out of course exactly what the gender critical reasoning is.
And the fact that as they no longer identify as a woman transmen may prefer not to be adressed as one.
So could you possibly explain what the gender critical say about transmen. I really don't under stand it. I have on many occasions seen posts saying transwomen are not women.
So are transmen not men and therefore women?*
I can't explain what 'the gender critical' say or do about anything, as they are a disparate group of people; but I can give my own opinion which is not particularly controversial - transmen are female-bodied people who 'identify' as men.

Regarding the 'addressing' issue - whilst I am happy enough to address people as they choose on an individual basis, I object to the idea that everyone should be called by titles that assume that 'gender identity' is real in order to accommodate the preferences of those transpeople who express a preference.

I may be missing something - I have no idea what it is that you don't understand.

I have just told you what I think, I cant speak for anyone else.. I think people can dress and present however they want. I think the concept of gender is oppressive for both women and men.