Assigned female at birth

VioletSky twice (at least) on these “trans” threads, you’ve said that violence/crimes against trans people is/are on the rise. The only violence that I’ve seen mentioned in all these threads had been committed by trans activists against women. So can you provide proof of this statement? I did ask you this on another thread but never received an answer.

At 19:55 I said that people aren't realising that their words in these discussions are having an impact. Crimes against trans people have quadrupled since discussions began.

No one challenged that.

Then I say that many platforms have banned some of the language here by disallowing language that incites violence or hate speech.

Everyone pulls that up.

If you can't see it after thread after thread of myself, GagaJo, trisher and many others who just couldn't continue pointing that out, I don't think it's possible to explain it.

If you embolden each other to call us names. Like myself personally, called stupid, abusive, gaslighting, passive aggressive and goodness knows what else I've thankfully forgotten that just isn't true... You just are assigning tone and meaning to me that isn't there...

Imagine the impact you are having in this debate.

Reddit has banned the Gender Critical forum rightfully for that reason. As have other platforms.

Absolutely agree with that Galaxy; JR has come in for a lot of stick in the past but has resolutely given women a place to discuss feminist issues with very light moderation. I suppose the answer would be, if people find that her platform allows a language or discourse that they find unpalatable, it's probably not the platform for them.

I think Justine is incredibly brave and I often defend decisions/monitors on GN because MN have absolutely stuck their neck out for womens rights, often under enormous pressure, so I have a lot of time for them.

That's not good JaneJudge; sorry you experienced that there.
I too would like to know what kind of language on here should be controlled Galaxy. This subject is all about "control" afterall so it would be good to know.

Sorry that happened Jane. That sounds horrible.

I had awful, sexualised hate type messages when i posted on mn so left. I have worked with men as well, I know what a lot of them are like when they are all together
I know this is unpopular
I have many sons but they wouldn't speak or behave like that i hope and if they do, they are tossers as well

VS said many more platforms werent allowing language allowed here. I wondered which language was the problem.

Mn terrifies some men because its mostly women talking to other women, they hate it so they slag it off. MN has always been a target for that kind of thing particularly as it provides a space for women who have been abused by men to seek information. They also get very cross when women discus the issue of prostitution. I cant imagine why.

Galaxy

What language is it that you would like to control VS?

Where does she say that?

What language is it that you would like to control VS?

Chewbacca

Yeah, you're right Gagajo. --said no one--

Google it. There are plenty of articles about it. It was big in the media a couple of years ago, trended on Twitter.

Gagajo I was, I said a few days ago that more and more platforms are not allowing some of the language that's still OK here, that's probably why

Yeah, you're right Gagajo. said no one

Anyone who imagines men have "handed over" women's sport is really unaware of what is really happening and who controls sport. It certainly isn't women.

Now you really have impressed me trisher. I honestly had no idea that your ear was closer to the ground of elite sports than Seb Coe, Sharon Davies and Sonia O'Sullivan. That's so comforting to know that the biggest voices in professional sports are talking bilge and that, actually, you know better. Phew! I was worried there.

Are you all aware of the reputation Mumsnet has for fostering GC? They also have a bit of a reputation for not being particularly gay friendly.

Fair enough, if thats what you believe in, it's a great place to find your tribe. But let's not pretend there is debate happening on there. It is transphobic.

Doodledog

Chewbacca

I particularly enjoyed the comment above that photograph FarNorth! Not only do we force women to compete and lose against men, but we force them to lose against old, wobbly, porky men just to rub our nose in the fact that yes, when it comes to brute force men will overpower us and we'd better submit or else. They speak for me.

Me too.

This is why I think the TRA movement is founded on misogyny. Nobody who respected or cared for women would buy into something that reduces women to a 'weaker sex'. Having single sex classes (of various types - not just in sport) allowed women to compete, or to exist on their own terms, and to mix and compete with men when biology wasn't an issue.

Those things were fought for - men didn't just hand them over. Now that women are, at least in 'The West', equal, there are those who want to restore what they see as the natural order of things, and one way of doing that is to confront us with men's superior strength. So yes, 'compete' in sports teams, stand in changing rooms with their penis on display, so women and girls are intimidated, push into events that celebrate women, silence anyone who speaks out, don't let women have any space to themselves, remove words from the language, so that even if we can find the space to speak to one another we won't have the words.

Are these the actions of people who care about women?

Anyone who imagines men have "handed over" women's sport is really unaware of what is really happening and who controls sport. It certainly isn't women.
As for silencing it isn't one sided any more than abuse is. You only have to read these threads to realise that.

You're quite right grannysyb; the sheer numbers of knowledgeable, articulate and independent younger women on Mumsnet never ceases to inspire me; the vast majority of them are singing from the same hymn sheet and they obviously make a mockery of the assertions we so often hear on GN that "it's only you older people who are bothered by the trans issues; younger people are totally on board with it"; I dare them to go over there and say it! I admire that they can see the way their futures as women is going down and what they're in danger of losing and they won't give in without a fight. They arm each other with knowledge, information and an awareness of any avenues where they can get their voices heard. And, like here on GN, the dissenters are small in number - very much a minority and much challenged. I've learnt a great deal from mumsnetters and, it's because of them and their willingness to stick their heads above the parapet and shout as loudly as they can, that I get the resources to do the same. More power to them!

grannysyb

I'm with all the people on Mumsnet who are against all the trans women who are trying to eradicate me, it's not all trans people by a long way, but a lot them saying that I'm a TERF for saying that I am a woman who was born female. Doodledig , Rosie and Chewbacca put my point of view much better than I can

grannysyb Do you mind me asking if your friends feel the same as you? Do you think that people in general (not just online) are waking up to the fact that it is not 'kind' to sit back when women are being pushed aside?

GagaJo and trisher

Gender Critical to my mind was a polite term but maybe its not an accurate one.

Perhaps it's better to use Anti Trans Activists ar ATA

Because people aren't realising that their words in these very public discussions are having an impact.

Or perhaps they do and they don't care but I wouldn't want to judge unfairly.

Crimes against trans people are rising in parallel to this debate. Quadrupled in fact since it began.

Words have power which we all must hold ourselves accountable for.

In the same way that hate crime rose against migrants before and after Brexit because people felt empowered to say whatever they wished, it's happening here.

This is why I remain moderate in these discussions. I do not want to empower trans activists with my words and I don't condone empowering anti trans activists either.

I'm with all the people on Mumsnet who are against all the trans women who are trying to eradicate me, it's not all trans people by a long way, but a lot them saying that I'm a TERF for saying that I am a woman who was born female. Doodledig , Rosie and Chewbacca put my point of view much better than I can

GagaJo, do you read posts selectively? You really can't be serious when you talk about insults by so-called GC feminists, as though they never come the other way?

As for 'debate', what debate comes from the TRA side of the argument? All we hear is:
TWAW - we ask why, the answer is 'because I believe it'. When we ask 'What is a woman, then? We are ignored, or told it's a trick question!

Or You aren't kind, which is meaningless.

Or transpeople only want to live quietly' but when we give examples of how that is not always the case, there is no reply, or you accuse us of 'catastrophising' when we point in the direction of a 'cis man nut job' (your words) who is headlining at an event to celebrate women.

What sort of comments are 'the media' going to get from that level of 'debate'?

As for insults, I have been told that I am unworthy of respect, that I don't have women's well being at heart, that I advocate violence - and that's just today! Please don't take the moral high ground - you have no room to do so.

GagaJo I’ve never claimed to be GC or not, but you keep referring to anyone who disagrees with you as GC. Is that your Go-to phrase when you don’t want to admit you’re wrong?
That’s nice GagaJo.

GagaJo

The level of childishness from the GC on here is something to behold. Really.

As we're frequently reminded, bits of the forums end up in the media. Most of this thread really doesn't do the Gender Critical cause any favours. I'm not of course referring to the areas you actually discuss the topic, those bits I may well disagree with, but they're debate.

I'm talking about the insults, the gloating, the cheerleader affirmations and pre-teen level of use of emojis. I'm bemused by the need for it. I presume it's some sort of group bonding/team building thing.

This is why I'm not really bothering to comment much

I spend a lot of time explaining empathy to children because there is no point just saying "stop that" and "that's not kind". You have to get down on their level and help them understand how the other child felt.

No one should have to try and do that with grown adults just so that everyone can participate on the playground (discussion).

Chewbacca

I particularly enjoyed the comment above that photograph FarNorth! Not only do we force women to compete and lose against men, but we force them to lose against old, wobbly, porky men just to rub our nose in the fact that yes, when it comes to brute force men will overpower us and we'd better submit or else. They speak for me.

Me too.

This is why I think the TRA movement is founded on misogyny. Nobody who respected or cared for women would buy into something that reduces women to a 'weaker sex'. Having single sex classes (of various types - not just in sport) allowed women to compete, or to exist on their own terms, and to mix and compete with men when biology wasn't an issue.

Those things were fought for - men didn't just hand them over. Now that women are, at least in 'The West', equal, there are those who want to restore what they see as the natural order of things, and one way of doing that is to confront us with men's superior strength. So yes, 'compete' in sports teams, stand in changing rooms with their penis on display, so women and girls are intimidated, push into events that celebrate women, silence anyone who speaks out, don't let women have any space to themselves, remove words from the language, so that even if we can find the space to speak to one another we won't have the words.

Are these the actions of people who care about women?