To think this is grooming in plain sight

There’s something really nasty going on under the blanket of “benefiting or educating the children”

I agree wholeheartedly.
Too much power has been handed to organisations who should have NO business going anywhere near our children.
This theatre company is one.
Stonewall is another.

It's about time a stop was put to it.

Wanna mess and experiment with adults? Fine. Crack on.
But leave children out of it.

There's a major safe guarding fail happening in this country. And as a previous poster said, its under the guise of 'educating'
And nobody seems brave enough to put their necks above the parapet and say Enough!

My friends daughter is a teacher and she says that many of her colleagues are unhappy with some of the things children are being exposed to, but they darent speak out for fear of losing their jobs.
Sad.
.

Chewbacca

^However, this is just another trans hate thread masquerading as a different topic. Yawn^

So the legitimate concerns that thousands of parents, grandparents and guardians have expressed about this "production" can just be swept aside and dismissed as trans hate or transphobia can it? How arrogant is that.

Well it is arrogant, but what’s new?
Don’t spoil their fun! It gives them a feeling of self righteousness to say just another trans-hate thread masquerading as a different topic.
Makes a change from the usual female hate threads masquerading as “peace to all” and “be kind” topics.

GagaJo

The fact is, none of us know the content of this production.

However, this is just another trans hate thread masquerading as a different topic. Yawn

Don’t talk utter nonsense. How is it trans hate ? It’s about deciding what’s appropriate for a child to see and be told about. If your five year olds’ teacher stripped off in class and started singing little ditties about the clitoris would you be happy ? These people have a website and the content of the show is detailed on it - go and have a look. To try to subvert the conversation about protecting our children from an attempt to ‘normalise’ what amounts to child abuse in plain sight, and make it about trans hatred is ridiculous.

started singing little ditties about the clitoris

At least men might know where to find it if they learn it as a child.

How is it trans hate?

Maybe read through the whole thread again because there is definitely a disapproval of children knowing about trans people from some posters.
I have a cousin whose child was adamant he wanted to be a girl from 4 years old so he has been allowed to dress as a girl as he wishes and go by a girl's name. As he has got older, nothing has deterred him and I usually refer to him as she. To start with I was horrified but he has been allowed to make his decisions and express his feelings. Talking about this openly might have helped him enormously and other people I know have really struggled because of society's disapproval.

There is disapproval for children knowing things that they are probably not the slightest bit interested in, such as strangers on stage stripping off and talking about their stories.
I wouldn't have wanted my 5 year old involved with that, regardless of how the people identify.

Not using the phrase dress as a girl might help lots of girls who are bombarded with sterotypes about how to dress. I know many girls and women who would be helped if the issues around those stereotypes were discussed more openly.

icanhandthemback

^started singing little ditties about the clitoris^

At least men might know where to find it if they learn it as a child.

How is it trans hate?

Maybe read through the whole thread again because there is definitely a disapproval of children knowing about trans people from some posters.
I have a cousin whose child was adamant he wanted to be a girl from 4 years old so he has been allowed to dress as a girl as he wishes and go by a girl's name. As he has got older, nothing has deterred him and I usually refer to him as she. To start with I was horrified but he has been allowed to make his decisions and express his feelings. Talking about this openly might have helped him enormously and other people I know have really struggled because of society's disapproval.

It’s still not trans hate. I don’t see issues with children being told about trans issues. What I do see is alarm at the way it’s being presented by these people and the fact that it’s a one size fits all approach with no regard to age appropriate content. I really don’t see the point of introducing trans issues to a five year old. There’s plenty of evidence to support the fact that people allowed their freedom to choose at a young age have lived to regret it. A desire for caution to be applied so that children can be allowed to make the right decision which will not ruin their lives later on, isn't trans hatred. It’s common sense. Not a lot of it about these days if this is the way we’re headed regarding sex ‘education’.

If my grandson identified as a girl, I would support him.
I don't need a stranger singing a song about their fanny to make me.

It's doing parents a disservice to assume they wouldn't support an unhappy child to identify how they wish.

Hear hear MissA. Or is that here here ? Whichever it is it’s what most parents would do.

MissAdventure

There is disapproval for children knowing things that they are probably not the slightest bit interested in, such as strangers on stage stripping off and talking about their stories.
I wouldn't have wanted my 5 year old involved with that, regardless of how the people identify.

Whilst I am not sure about children as young as 5 (although as I said my cousin was 4), certainly by 8 a large amount of children knew about what they called "him-shes" over 20 years ago when I was tasked with teaching sex education. By the time they were 10, they could educate me...although quite often with skewed "facts". The one thing it showed me is that discussion of these things is very important to come from a reliable source before attitudes harden. I think it is naive to think that children aren't interested in sex, they just don't talk about it in front of adults once they realise the subject is taboo. Once they are older they are often too embarrassed by it.

I haven't actually defended or decried the show, btw, I don't know enough about it, I do think sex education should be age appropriate, unbiased as to gender and I think if you take into account what children know amongst themselves, it is earlier than you think. That may be very sad but with all the things that children see on TV, social media, etc, it is perhaps inevitable.

Pepper59

Why on earth do children as young as five need to know all this ? Can we not just let children have a childhood? They will have to deal with these topics soon enough, let children be children. You can still warn them about danger. I wouldn't be taking any child to this.

I agree with this.

I worked in child protection fir over 20 years covering families with children up to the age of 18. The area i worked in was mostly deprived. In all that time i never heard the expression him-she. Nor was I involved or ever aware of such a case.
Plenty of chaotic families, abuse of all varieties, poverty, drugs, alcohol, crime, neglect and violence though.
Was only discussing this yesterday with an ex colleague from a different area, and she said the same.
Not to say it wasn’t an issue, of course, but in all those years would have expected to have come across it in the course of our work which was always intense and detailed given the statutory responsibility the department had.

I'm pretty sure children know a fair bit about sex, that they arent necessarily going to chat with their parents about.
Does that mean they should watch a show all about it, though?
Regardless of how those who make the show identify, because that isn't the focus of this thread, or the people chatting about it.

Antonia/Pepper59 What makes you think children under 5 are not interested in how their bodies work and how babies come into the world? My eldest child was asking where babies come from and similar questions when he was three and his sister at much the same age. I just told them. I answered the questions as they came. It is not what you tell small children but how. Give them the information they require when they ask for it and no more and stick to the facts and do not embroider them.

MissAdventure

I'm pretty sure children know a fair bit about sex, that they arent necessarily going to chat with their parents about.
Does that mean they should watch a show all about it, though?
Regardless of how those who make the show identify, because that isn't the focus of this thread, or the people chatting about it.

I agree - and depending on their age a lot of it is going to cause embarrassment, which will do more harm than good. I can’t imagine any 14-15 yr old sitting next to mum and dad watching this stuff and not wishing themselves a thousand miles away !! And I also can’t see the point of exposing much younger children to issues they have no way of processing because they’re too young to make sense of them.

My biggest concern is this. A young child goes to see the show with his parents. He sees people he doesn’t know taking their clothes off and talking openly about sex, touching masturbation and other related issues. His perception is that it’s OK and safe to be around these things because mum and dad are with him. So when he encounters someone with not so good intentions who takes their clothes off and talks about touching and the other things he’s seen, how is he supposed to know the difference ? By the time he realises that this isn’t the same thing and it’s not safe, it’s too late and the abuse is well underway. How do you equate ‘stranger danger’ to this ?

There’s a perception that children are ‘little adults’ - I’ve actually seen that phrase somewhere in the literature. They are not, they are children and we have a duty to protect their innocence until they have reached an age when they understand these issues, can process and make sense of them properly and make informed decisions as to what they want to explore, and what they do not. You’re right - it’s not about how the presenters of the show identify, it’s about the appropriateness of the content in relation to the age of the children watching. It’s about questioning the safeguarding issues around this ‘show’ and protecting our children from those who appear on the face of it, to be pushing an agenda aimed at sexualising children from as early an age as possible. We shouldn’t be sleepwalking into this because we’re too afraid to speak out in case we’re accused of some phobia or other.

Young children, I would imagine, based on my experience, would far sooner got to a kids show, a pantomime or something like Disney on Ice, than this...let children be that.

Why do very young children need to know about masturbation and sexual preferences?

Mine would have been bored stiff at this sort of show, and I wouldn't have taken them anyway.

M0nica

Antonia/Pepper59 What makes you think children under 5 are not interested in how their bodies work and how babies come into the world? My eldest child was asking where babies come from and similar questions when he was three and his sister at much the same age. I just told them. I answered the questions as they came. It is not what you tell small children but how. Give them the information they require when they ask for it and no more and stick to the facts and do not embroider them.

There’s a big difference between a five year old asking where babies come from and offering up information on all the other aspects which appear in the show. . You’ve hit the nail on the head when you say that they should be given factual information when they ask for it - age appropriate and explained in terms they can understand and relate to. A far cry from sitting in a theatre watching strangers undress and having confusing information coming at you from all sides. From some of the comments I read on MN when a similar thread appeared there recently, a lot of the posters were in favour of the show, calling it progressive and inclusive. Until they were asked how they would feel if their child came home and told them their sex education teacher had stripped off and talked about masturbation in class !!

I was outside tending to my plants years ago, when the little boy who lived opposite came over for a chat.
He was telling me that he has a mummy and daddy, but sometimes daddys love other daddys, and all that kind of thing.
I didn't feel the need to make a song and dance out of it.
Would it be ok if I had? (Literally)

silverlining48, it was a common term for a while around this area and the primary school I worked in was also in a deprived inner city area. I was also a youth worker for young people aged 14 to 21 and some of the expressions used were not exactly great then but definitely offensive now; their lives were chaotic too. You may not of heard of it but was definitely a term I heard regularly. I have no reason to make this up.

Would I talk about masturbation in great detail to a 5 year old? Only in general terms if they kept playing with themselves and I would just say that whilst it might feel nice, it wasn't the done thing to do it in public. Generally I think we should be open and honest with our kids, as parents decide what we think is appropriate (which might mean a theatre show) and teach our kids to be accepting of people who are not the norm whether that be sexuality, race or disability (and a host of other differences).

Yes, everybody does thinks they should be open and honest with their children.
I'm sure nobody is having a fit of the vapours about chatting with their children - when they ask, when it's appropriate, when they have the ability to understand the chat.
It's how families function.

Of course most loving parents/carers chat to their children. It's a case of answering their questions as they arise.

It doesn't need this sort of show.

Have had a look on their site.
This is some of the language used and excerpts from ther songs.

'What's your favourite position?'
'Can I play'?
Talk of threesomes
Pegging
Squirting.
and that's skimming through quickly.
There is probably more that I've missed.


Some of their songs (hope you haven't just eaten)

Altogether now!

The clitoris
The clitoris
It's wet and warm
So wet and warm

I have a penis in my pants
Touch it!
Touch it!
Oh go on and Touch it!

I scrolled down to the end to read

'We jump back into the end of the opera music with all three singers singing
"Touch it where you want it now!

I actually felt really uncomfortable typing the above.
It's sickening to think that some parents will force their children to watch this s#$@.
And they will be forced.
I can't think of any child who given a choice, would willingly want to sit through this with their parents.
This is made by adults FOR adults imo.

At the moment it might seem all very cutting edge and progressive and so-called educational, but I suspect in years to come we will look back on this sort of thing in the same way we now look back on Jimmy Savile.
And think 'why on earth didn't we do something at the time to try and stop it"

Oh yes, almost forgot, they have a section called Press.
There is ONE review by The Guardian and its positive.
What a surprise.

Oh, how very inclusive and forward thinking.

Wouldn't it be damaging for a theatre to be associated with this?

Good grief.