AIBU to think the NHS is already dead

Jane43

Baggs

Also, what services have been privatised exactly?

My DH is diabetic and was told he must arrange any treatment for his feet himself, all they provide is an annual touch test so he pays to see a podiatrist every few months. GP surgeries in our area will also not clear wax in the ears, our son had to pay to have his done at a local physiotherapy practice.

The ear wax thing, as I understand it, is because ear syringeing is not regarded as good practice. About thirty years ago my GP told me that the risk of causing infection is one of the reasons the approach changed.

I don't know anything about diabetes and foot touch tests but wonder if it could have something to do with what is regarded as actually necessary?

As I said Georgesgran, had you bothered to actually read, this is nothing to do with the care recieved which is generally outstanding, but the way this far-right government is killing the essence of the NHS by destroying "free at the point of need".

Georgesgran

Well said Freya and others. OP doesn’t seem to like the answers she’s received. Most of us will know ‘someone’ who hasn’t had perfect NHS care, but on investigation it’s often an anomaly/misinformation/misunderstanding. My DD can’t wait for her promised podiatry - we’ll gladly pay for it. So many want a service, but how many actually need it? My MinL (fairly well off) would wait weeks for chiropody rather than pay for it. Nose and face.

I may not agree with the answers but "like"? I'm not two! I have opinions of my own and didn't realise we are not allowed to discuss on GN these days.

Is this a Mumsnet thing? Or has GNHQ changed the rules? Or have a little group of you decided you run GN?

I agree with you Urmston.

Witzend

DaisyAnneReturns

Witzend

It was very much not dead when I was ill back in March - 3 weeks of excellent care in hospital.

As for contracted-out services, an ex colleague had both his really bad cataracts done at a specialist ‘private’ clinic - for free. The fact that they were so bad was nothing to do with the NHS - he just hadn’t bothered to see an optician let alone a GP, for many years,

I don't doubt the care but what if you had to pay for it?

That was not the original question, though.

I’m well aware that the cost would be crippling if I had to pay and didn’t have adequate insurance. Despite paying a very hefty whack in monthly premiums, my sister in the US still had to shell out ‘merely’ for a badly cut finger.

And in my ignorance I’d actually said, ‘Well, at least you’re insured, to which she’d replied, ‘You’re joking - there was a $2000 excess.’

I didn't know there were rules about not developing a conversation and train of thought Witzend.

Interesting to hear about your sister's experience.

I wish they’d take paracetamol away from being prescribed.
It’d be a start.

Years ago (not sure now) men could have a vasectomy on the NHS then, years down the line if wishing they hadn’t had that op, could have a reversal done on the NHS. What a cheek for ‘a lifestyle choice’.

I used to type the letters from the surgeons to the relevant GPs and I used to think it wasn’t right. It ought to have been spelled out ‘yep, the NHS will do your vasectomy Sir, but sign here please because if you change your mind you have to fund a reversal yourself’.

In my opinion the NHS lost their way. It couldn’t decide FULLY whether it was providing a service or running a business.

I’ve probably mentioned this before, but IMO some people do so take ‘free’ for granted, that it virtually amounts to abuse.

A friend of ours stockpiled a mass of free prescription items - I once counted over 60 of 5 or 6 preparations in his bathroom. More than once they were all thrown away by a visiting friend who was an ex nurse, and yet again after he eventually died.

Dh was an executor so I do know that he left over £1m in cash and two houses long paid for. But he was notoriously tight with money so I’m quite sure that if he’d had to pay even £2-3 for prescription items, he’d never have taken so many that he just didn’t need.

I doubt very much that he’s the only one who takes free items they don’t need. Among his items were packs of paracetamol, which anyone can buy for pennies in supermarkets. And I read somewhere that each prescription costs the NHS £7+ just in admin, never mind the cost of the item.

Well said Freya and others. OP doesn’t seem to like the answers she’s received. Most of us will know ‘someone’ who hasn’t had perfect NHS care, but on investigation it’s often an anomaly/misinformation/misunderstanding. My DD can’t wait for her promised podiatry - we’ll gladly pay for it. So many want a service, but how many actually need it? My MinL (fairly well off) would wait weeks for chiropody rather than pay for it. Nose and face.

DaisyAnneReturns

Witzend

It was very much not dead when I was ill back in March - 3 weeks of excellent care in hospital.

As for contracted-out services, an ex colleague had both his really bad cataracts done at a specialist ‘private’ clinic - for free. The fact that they were so bad was nothing to do with the NHS - he just hadn’t bothered to see an optician let alone a GP, for many years,

I don't doubt the care but what if you had to pay for it?

That was not the original question, though.

I’m well aware that the cost would be crippling if I had to pay and didn’t have adequate insurance. Despite paying a very hefty whack in monthly premiums, my sister in the US still had to shell out ‘merely’ for a badly cut finger.

And in my ignorance I’d actually said, ‘Well, at least you’re insured, to which she’d replied, ‘You’re joking - there was a $2000 excess.’

DaisyAnnReturns
The case of the lady in her 80’s at first glance seems to be having poor treatment.On second glance this is not NHS at fault it is her GP.Physiotherapy should be arranged by her surgery and if she has informed them that all she has at her disposal is a phone then they should give her a number to ring.My Mum, now 81 has physio now and then, she also has diabetes type2 which is managed by medication, an annual free eye test and an annual free foot check.
Your friend may have gone down the private appointment route to get physio more quickly, which is sometimes the case.
Just to add, it’s rude of you to dismiss other posters by saying they may have an ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude. I see no evidence of this.

I feel that whatever anyone says, you have this fixation and you won't be swayed by other people's ideas, arguments.

GrannyRose15

Would it be too pedantic if me to point out that the phrase is “free at the point of use” not “need”.

It seems to be somewhat interchangeable. "Free at the point of delivery" is also used by those in this field.

In a government paper on Care (2019) - slightly different I know; they write.that they plan to :
be fair and accessible to all who need it, when they need it – ensuring that fees are more transparent, information and advice is user-friendly and easily accessible, and no one is subject to unpredictable and unlimited care costs

Admittedly this plan was underfunded an l'm not sure what got put into action - if anything. But it is an example of how words are swapped around.

Jane43

Baggs

Also, what services have been privatised exactly?

My DH is diabetic and was told he must arrange any treatment for his feet himself, all they provide is an annual touch test so he pays to see a podiatrist every few months. GP surgeries in our area will also not clear wax in the ears, our son had to pay to have his done at a local physiotherapy practice.

This sort of tinkering makes such a difference. We are already being told that one of the issues with the cost of running our NHS is that we are always running hard to catch up and ending up with a service only for the very sick and disabled rather than one that keeps people well.

This is more about how it is run than how we pay, but that is also very relevant. It's obvious to most that catching problems early saves money in the long run. But we are making it more and more difficult for people to stay well enough. Often this is about staying well enough to work which we know has become a problem for the economy.

As well as people like Sunak not being able to understand that some people can't afford such things as professional foot care and ear syringing, we often also set test levels higher than other, similar countries, before we start treating people. I wonder if some of you feel currently cushioned by your income.

Our use of "technology" is poor, including the lack of imagination to understand that many do not have access to it.

I came across someone recently, who is on Pension Credit. She had just paid out £200 from her small savings, for physiotherapy. The GP pathway for treatment was closed to her as she has neither a smart phone nor a computer. She already uses a "walker", and has other conditions. She is well into her 80s.

With the walker she can walk to our local surgery and uses her bus pass, every day, to get out an about and keep herself busy. She has worked all her life in jobs that get people "service to the community" awards, but don't pay well. Her husband ran his own small "tradesman" business. She also has diabetes, and other conditions related to the culture she and many of us grew up in. Again the surgery are telling her a private company will monitor her diabetes electronically. She simply doesn't have the technology.

I am all for using technology and very keen to see it used more, but wonder if some of you who do not see a problem have a rather better income than this lady and rather more knowledge of technology, and therefore have an "I'm all right Jack" attitude at the moment.

Would it be too pedantic if me to point out that the phrase is “free at the point of use” not “need”.

Baggs

Also, what services have been privatised exactly?

My DH is diabetic and was told he must arrange any treatment for his feet himself, all they provide is an annual touch test so he pays to see a podiatrist every few months. GP surgeries in our area will also not clear wax in the ears, our son had to pay to have his done at a local physiotherapy practice.

I could imagine an insurance based system might happen in the future. Here they add a tax on people who are able to afford insurance but don’t take it out. The trouble with private health insurance is that it doesn’t cover half the things you would want it to and you end up with a big debt when you leave hospital. The public health is free but you have to wait and wait . Private health insurance doesn’t cover normal GP visits, only hospital visits. You get some back for dental care and eye care but not all of it.

I think there’s no chance that we’ll move to an insurance based system, but governments tinkering around the edges might happen. Mainly the NHS is rationed by governments, they provide not enough of what’s needed and prefer to make people wait. The doctor shortage for example, could easily be solved, although it would take time, because every single year many very well qualified students cannot get places at medical school because the government don’t want to pay for more places. That’s rationing. The government chooses to ration the number of medical school places which in turn rations the number of doctors available to practice, which in turn rations treatments. It’s a choice made by governments.

Freya, after the second World War the allies - mainly Britain -put in place a National Health style service in Germany. It is quite likely we had learned a few tweaks by then or that Germany added them.

There is no reason why we shouldn't look at other countries. What we need to ensure is that it is still free at the point of need. That is what makes it the National Health Service.

Freya5

DaisyAnneReturns

Witzend

It was very much not dead when I was ill back in March - 3 weeks of excellent care in hospital.

As for contracted-out services, an ex colleague had both his really bad cataracts done at a specialist ‘private’ clinic - for free. The fact that they were so bad was nothing to do with the NHS - he just hadn’t bothered to see an optician let alone a GP, for many years,

I don't doubt the care but what if you had to pay for it?

We do pay for it. Do you think its free. Yes free at the point of need, as it always was and always will be. No sign of anything else, and as others have said, care is combined. We have a brilliant private /NHS clinic, with a very good out of hours service. Yes it's free at point of need.

No Freya, nowhere have I suggested that I think it is free. Nowhere have I suggested that the majority of medical services are not currently free at the point of need.

You say that is what it always will be. It seems the country could be gaslighted once again and by the same people who did it to them once before.

Perhaps, before anyone votes in the next election, they should check what health insurance would cost for them and their family - or if it would even be available to them.

The right do not believe in anything where progressive taxation provides equality of opportunity - even health. They do not believe in a "free at the point of need" health service for all.

DaisyAnneReturns

The difference between the NHS and all other systems was the promise of "free at the point of need". This meant everybody got the same - they got what they needed at the time that they needed it.

Now we have private dentistry, private optical care, private hearing care, and soon private scanning clinics, private GPs, etc.

I don't doubt you may be able to use these places, as an "NHS" patient if you're poor, or that there will be special "NHS" clinics available. But you will be limited as you already are in the currently privatised areas, by the standard amount that the NHS/goverment will pay and which treatments they will cover.

To me means the death of the NHS.

Not sure what other systems you mean, American I suppose. My family in Germany get free at point of need. Yes they pay insurance, so do we. Unfortunately some bright spark decided to use ours with general taxation instead of health and social care. Germans also, from beginning work, pay into a social care fund, even the young get old. No one there loses out, as there is state insurance too, paid even if on benefits. Only ones who have to pay, are those without a German health card, although again emergency care free at need. They also involve private care providers. Does good to see how other countries work, they have more beds per population, but are also struggling to get staff, and some waits are as long as ours. No our NHS is not dead,struggling, but not and won't be gone.

DaisyAnneReturns

The thing that makes the National Health Service a health service unlike any other, is the fact that it is free at the point of need.

It seems many of you do not mind losing that and feel you'll be able to afford to pay upfront or get insurance in your older years. That certainly answers the question I asked. Thank you.

How you work that out is anyones guess🤣
That isn’t the case at all if you read all the posts on this thread.It seems it’s what you want it to be as you don’t like the answers given.

Of course you would want to pay Kate. I imagine we all would.

But if we sleepwalk into a situation where the "free at the point of need" reason for the birth of the NHS, disappears, we would become like the USA where in 2022 medical debt was the number one reason for people filing for bankruptcy.

Yes there will have to be changes and changes, as I have said, can be for the good. But free at the point of need is the NHS and that is the government's commitment to the people that I think is dying.

DaisyAnneReturns

Witzend

It was very much not dead when I was ill back in March - 3 weeks of excellent care in hospital.

As for contracted-out services, an ex colleague had both his really bad cataracts done at a specialist ‘private’ clinic - for free. The fact that they were so bad was nothing to do with the NHS - he just hadn’t bothered to see an optician let alone a GP, for many years,

I don't doubt the care but what if you had to pay for it?

We do pay for it. Do you think its free. Yes free at the point of need, as it always was and always will be. No sign of anything else, and as others have said, care is combined. We have a brilliant private /NHS clinic, with a very good out of hours service. Yes it's free at point of need.

A few members of my family have been in life or death situations, my brother being the last one only two years ago. The NHS saved him. His family would obviously have done anything to save him. I would pay, assuming I could, to save a family member. Of course there are problems. Someone I know who has a serious problem can't get a GP appointment.

The thing that makes the National Health Service a health service unlike any other, is the fact that it is free at the point of need.

It seems many of you do not mind losing that and feel you'll be able to afford to pay upfront or get insurance in your older years. That certainly answers the question I asked. Thank you.