woops!!!! I have been told I have really upset a Grandchild

*nowt

Silverbrooks

Nonsense. If someone changes their name, we should respect that choice and use that name henceforth.

When someone has been married for years and took their spouse's surname but we happened to know them when they were younger and single, we don’t carry on calling them by their former surname, do we?

Yes!

I referred to a young person I've known since she was born by her maiden name today, she didn't bother.

In fact, why should women have to give up their birth name? That's so passé now.

Whoops, I expect maiden is non-pc too, Silverbrooks
😯

you are an amazingly thoughtful, caring GM Franbern and I think that your adult GC should learn something from you..

I used that as an example of name changing but maybe a better example would be if a woman married but chose to keep her surname but we decided to call her by her spouse’s name - because it was almost unheard of years ago for someone to keep their single name other than for professional reasons.

This is a young person we are talking about and whether someone from two generation before is comfortable with it or not, times have changed and different codes of behaviour apply.

OP did absolutely the right thing before being made to feel uncertain by some knitters who (presumably) do not the know the young adult in question. I'm glad she posted the card and hope the apology is accepted with good grace.

Allira

Silverbrooks

Nonsense. If someone changes their name, we should respect that choice and use that name henceforth.

When someone has been married for years and took their spouse's surname but we happened to know them when they were younger and single, we don’t carry on calling them by their former surname, do we?

Yes!

I referred to a young person I've known since she was born by her maiden name today, she didn't bother.

In fact, why should women have to give up their birth name? That's so passé now.

Whoops, I expect maiden is non-pc too, Silverbrooks
😯

My DIL hasn’t given up her birth name, good for her. I didn’t want to, but in the end bowed to convention - and my married name is much easier to spell!

Grandma70s

Allira

Silverbrooks

Nonsense. If someone changes their name, we should respect that choice and use that name henceforth.

When someone has been married for years and took their spouse's surname but we happened to know them when they were younger and single, we don’t carry on calling them by their former surname, do we?

Yes!

I referred to a young person I've known since she was born by her maiden name today, she didn't bother.

In fact, why should women have to give up their birth name? That's so passé now.

Whoops, I expect maiden is non-pc too, Silverbrooks
😯

My DIL hasn’t given up her birth name, good for her. I didn’t want to, but in the end bowed to convention - and my married name is much easier to spell!

I was quite glad to change mine!

However, several women I know (including DD) use their birth name professionally or always retained their birth name.

The new way of talking of people confuses me sometimes. I was reading an article of a person who was found dead and the article referred to their father and I was thinking was there more than one person found? Then the penny dropped! It was me forgetting about the way people speak now. I think you’re doing a great job and unfortunately you made a slip of the tongue you have apologised so let’s hope it is accepted.

Silverbrooks

^They are now well adult.^

I am not sure what that well means - 18 or considerably older than that but you used a name you knew they had left behind.

They have every right to be annoyed that you deadnamed them and you should apologise:

skills4training.org/what-is-deadnaming/

That is extremely harsh Silverbrook. It was an easy mistake for Franbern to make. She has tried very hard to accommodate this grandchild. I see no reason why she should have to apologise but it saves a rift. Frankly I am tired of the demands made on the rest of us by people who decide they are living in the wrong body. They are in the minority but the majority are forced to cowtow to them.

I think in the circumstances I would have apologised for hurting the grandchild, but I couldn't agree that she has changed sex, as this is not possible.

I believe that whereas it costs nothing to respect people's name choices, it also costs nothing to bear in mind that nobody should force those choices on others, and that older people won't always keep up with fast-changing developments in the way that younger ones might. Your grandchild is expecting something from you that she is not giving back. Whether I would point this out or not would depend on the relationship, but I think it would stop me from feeling guilty about a slip of the tongue.

I would have said that I will try and use their new name in future, but think there is an overreaction on their part.

Thankfully, there is no eggshell walking in our families. But not saying it wont happen one day.

Apologizing was the right thing, even for an honest mistake like this. I don't see anything wrong with referring to people in the way they want to be referred to. It is a minor inconvenience for us but can make a huge impact for them.

I understand there are people who have big feelings about other peoples names and pronouns, but if you love someone you should respect their wishes. Generally I people who changes their name under these circumstances feel they are and have always been the person they present as now. It is not too much to ask to be called by the name you choose.

OP did the right thing. You can feel how you feel about it and still do right by your loved one.

Silverbrooks

Nonsense. If someone changes their name, we should respect that choice and use that name henceforth.

When someone has been married for years and took their spouse's surname but we happened to know them when they were younger and single, we don’t carry on calling them by their former surname, do we?

You've moved the goalposts.

Franbern was referring to an occasion which happened when the grandchild was four, different name but the valid name for that time.
Since that time the grandchild has changed their identity three times and name twice.

They should all be giving Franbern a hug and apologising for treating her with a lack of respect.

They have a complete lack of understanding and care for an elderly person.
I am using they as a plural btw. All of them should have more understanding of how difficult this might seem to someone in their eighties.

Silverbrooks thanks for this article, interesting, but still does not answer my question,
When I referred to my g.child regarding something they did when they were 4 years old, the conversation actually covered me calling her ( as she was then ) and her cousin (they were bridesmaids at one of other daughters' wedding). So, when talking about this I used the words I used all those years ago, which included their names.

I still think my use of that name in that report is the correct way of doing it. I do not and would not use that name for that g.child now.

I will keep the peace, Yes, I know they will accept the apology and their Mum is happy that I have sent it. HOWEVER, I know that they are wrong, I was not 'deadnaming' then = I was reporting something that actually occurred 17 years ago. I could not possibly have called them with their current name!!!

It does concern me that if their skin is so very thin, that they can take such offence at my report (which was in actual fact a laugh against myself back then), which included their birth name, then life is going to prove quite difficult for them.

When I was an apprentice hairdresser for a couple of years back in the 1950's I had to use a different name at the Salon as there was already someone with my name there. I hated the name I used then at that job. However, any reference over the years to my time there includes that name - as that is what I was called then. My father changed our surname when i was 7 years old - and my brother was 20 years old. However, any reference anywhere to either of us (& my parents) before the date of that deed poll does so in our pre-deed poll name - as that is what it was then.

I, like others of my generation, took my husbands surname upon marriage. Any reference to me prior that date in 1964 uses my pre-marriage surname.

So, this so-called deadnaming does not take place when referring to anyone before the time they took on their new names. Do not think even you can manage to argue different.

Using the name that someone has chosen is hardly kowtowing i.e acting in a subservient manner.

It is simply good manners to refer to someone by the name they have chosen to use whether referring to an event in the present or the past. The reference to the story was made in the present not the past.

I believe you did the only thing possible here franbern, least said and move on. I do feel your grandchild and daughter could have handled their responses more sensitively. You’ve shown over the years your love and acceptance of this young adult. In their shoes I hope I’d have been reassuring my adult child to cut gran some slack

I feel for Franbern. Her family have treated her badly by insisting on an apology. There was clearly no intention to hurt the feelings of her grandchild who if well adult needs to grow up
I know for the sake of harmony an apology had to be made but I find it demeaning in the circumstances. No way to treat a grandmother.

Franbern I know how much your family means to you and what you went through bringing them up. They should know you didn't mean any harm . Now you have sent the card all you can do is wait . If they don't accept your apology then the fault is theirs not yours.

I hope they accept it and it's done and dusted with . But we live in an age where parents and grandparents have become disposable through no fault of our own .

Today's society has become a mine field . Where the slightest thing can cause an offence . Words we used have completely changed meaning . I have no idea what woke is. Or the other flowery words used to mean bad behaviour as it was called in our day.

I speak plainly. Had an email and the woman had put her/ she under her name as I had to reply to it I put woman under my name . When she replied back she just put her name no her/she.

Franbern you have always put your family first and they should know it . 🌹

Well, when DD went to university she used her second name so everyone who has met her since then knows her by one name but half the family and her school friends use her first name.
Is she bothered? No.
What's in a name?

It's not really about the name at all.
Franbern it sounds more as if your grandchild is still not confident in their identity and everyone is being very careful around them to avoid upsetting them. You did the right thing to keep the peace.

Essentially I am with Baggs, but what I think I would have done was sent the person concerned a letter apologising for my inadvertent mistake and asking whether they could provide me with a copy of the rules governing how they should be addressed in the past present and future because at my advanced age I find these matters very confusing and I would hate to commit another inadvertent offence.

It is what is known as passive aggression, and highly appropriate under the circumstances.

It does concern me that if their skin is so very thin, that they can take such offence at my report (which was in actual fact a laugh against myself back then), which included their birth name, then life is going to prove quite difficult for them.

In the same circumstances, I would share your concern Franbern. You didn't wilfully misname your grandchild and I hope that they accept your apology with grace and have the good manners to contact you when the card is received.

Franbern is not a person who lacks good manners Silverbrook.

Least said, soonest mended. I would have apologised for it as don't want family fall outs, in my opinion you did nothing wrong, how on earth can anyone keep up with all this I don't know. I would keep out of the way in future. What a ridiculous phase, deadnaming, is someone sitting in an office somewhere making all these things up. You are a good mother and gran, they should think on that. The worlds gone mad.

I am not sure what a non binary person is, make or female I will google it.

Silverbrooks

Using the name that someone has chosen is hardly kowtowing i.e acting in a subservient manner.

It is simply good manners to refer to someone by the name they have chosen to use whether referring to an event in the present or the past. The reference to the story was made in the present not the past.

It’s surely simply good manners to remember it isn’t all about you. That’s gentle advice and role modelling my parents instilled in us. It didn’t make us push overs but it did help minimise drama queening
Franbern deserves more respect, acceptance and dare I say love from her grandchild and daughter

When someone has been married for years and took their spouse's surname but we happened to know them when they were younger and single, we don’t carry on calling them by their former surname, do we?

Of course we do, if we are reminiscing. Dinan and Magsie come to mind, their names when they were four, fondly remembered.
This particular person seems to be suffering an identity crisis.