Hungry Britain

Not so much Beyond the Fringe as that Monty Python sketch where everyone tries to outdo everyone else about childhood hardship, ending, I think, with one of them declaring that his family had to get up before they went to bed.

Well said Galen
I get a bit annoyed when I hear 'the middle classes' condemned for real or imagined faults, as if the constituents of the middle classes are a homogeneous group with identical values and beliefs.
I am middle class because I was fortunate enough to get a free place at a very good school and then a free university education.
It's like being condemned because you're a baby boomer.
To paraphrase a famous line from Beyond the Fringe,
What if you're middle class and a baby boomer?

Class used to be from 'breeding'
Now it's by proffesion!
By breeding, my grandparents were, foundry foreman, housewife.
Barber, housewife.
Parents
Mother
Primary teacher,
Father,
general practioner, magistrate, deputy coronet.
He died at age 54 from a brain tumour, while studiend for a law degree.
Myself!
I'm me!
What class am I ?
I don't care!
I'm me!

It is funny that when market values come into play and plumbers, because there are fewer of them, can command higher fees some people appear find it against the 'natural order' but if we have a glut of lawyers/ accountants etc. we do not expect their hourly rates to fall.

Class is a funny thing!

This thread is bringing out the baaaad side of jingl.

Night night.

Who the hell said plumbers and the like are "lowly"?

Oh FFS! Put your chips on shoulders away. I might even start to feel sorry for you.

Plumbers and roofers, etc., get paid quite well. It was the carer in Newcastle that I felt most sorry for.
There was a thread earlier about how much you paid for a plumber. About £90 average to service a boiler, which takes less than an hour in my experience.
I presume, Cactus, that you had your mortgage before you had your zero hours contract. People on zero hours contracts do not get mortgages these days.

Galen, sorry, I did not mean to imply you worked for Atos. I was just asking how things had changed since Atos came on the scene. ( Would have responded earlier but granddaughter, six, had her first nosebleed, so was rather distracted.) We tend to hear things second hand, and from the point of view of the person who has the WCA, not from the doctors who do the reviews.

I meant

[Smile] gillybob

Exactly rosequartz after all the most brilliant of doctors, mathematicians or barristers would still need a lowly plumber to unblock their drain

Where would we be without a huge range of professions, trades and those hard workers who have absolutely no qualifications but the ability to do their job well . All essential or else society grinds to a halt. All valuable, all have their place.

And politicians? Could we manage without them?

You absolutely shouldn't have felt an "ouch" Galen of course you have worked hard and qualified and quite frankly where would we be without "you" and your profession? The point I was trying (badly) to make is that we can't all be doctors, dentists, solicitors etc. it takes all sorts to make a community and my son (as a qualified electrician) has worked bloody hard believe you me. He did not do well at school and has had some challenging times in his life but is he not valuable too? I am sorry that I may not be quite as articulate as some posters but I was quite hurt by some remarks that came across as though you should only have children if daddy earns enough for mummy to stay at home.

It was actually meant to be sarcastic not literal, granjura? Some posts seem to have been getting towards that idea, or at least some people seemed to be thinking they were. I thought it could bring it to a full stop and back on track.

and that is where discussions become just ridiculous. As you know full well this was NEVER suggested here- was it???

But yes, I do expect people to consider how well they are able to look after their children, and how many- as well as possible, before, as you say 'breed'. You see, I'd hope, foolishly, that humans would do more than breed- but actually take responsibility (in fact, most animals do).

Reading some of the above I am wondering if only those of a certain level of intellectual ability and attainment who are able to earn a good income should be allowed to breed and the rest compulsorily sterilized.

Oh, I forgot, didn't a few countries (USA, Sweden etc) try that years ago? Isn't it called eugenics?

I feel sorry for those trying to work and afford child care like the primary teacher.

I watched the programme and zero hours are downright cruel. Apart from not knowing what is happening next week how can these people prepare for their retirement, what retirement? They will be working until they drop.

I have just watched this programme and done my sums, it appears I am living below the poverty level and on a zero hours contract, however, I still have never missed my mortgage and car loan, never missed a bill and have food on the table (not a lot towards the end of a lean month).
I don't have debts such as loan sharks or catalogues, my stuff is second hand and ive never had a holiday for years but as long as my family are ok and I can cuddle my little granddaughter I don't ** care.
I will never ask for help, im probably not eligible and I wont be going to the food banks.

Good programme on ITV tonight - The Rise of the Working Poor.

Apparently there are more low-paid working families classed as being in poverty in the UK now than there are on benefits alone - that can't be right, can it?

Gillybob I felt an ouch! At your remark of 17.30
Should I not have worked and qualified?

I suppose you can look at it both ways. It does seem unfair that larger families should be the prerogative of the better off- but my daughter's point is that it is actually the other way round nowadays- and she thinks it is really unfair, actually. And I can see her point.

Mistakes happen, life happen, illness, accidents, deaths- and this is what the social welfare is for, and absolutely rightly so... but ....

where does one draw the line. I can truly understand that people who work really hard, make the sacrifices, work very longhours, and cut their cloth according to means- then see others run roughshod over it all- and expecting others to pay the bills. DD1 and sil get up at 6am everyday, and take it in turn to return home for 5.30, the other parent often not home till late due to responsibilities. My OH worked 130 hours + when our kids were young- there was no choice, and it was not for greed, that is for sure.

If the hard work has been there, penstemon then help should obviously be forthcoming.

I always wanted five children . had my DD then had twins , and was told that any subsequent pregnancies would more than likely end with twins again. {how they knew that I do not know ]
So we decided enough was enough , rather give the children we had a decent standard of living rather than stretch our resources !

Exactly, granjura. As I said somewhere else on this thread, what's wrong with expecting people to live within their means?

Of course the unforeseen can and does happen, jobs are lost, pregnancies may be accidental, but it would surely be better if more emphasis were placed on responsibility rather than entitlement.