How many dead Palestinians ....

Just look at what is happening in Syria, Iraq, Libya and a number of countries in Africa, to say nothing of Ukraine, North Korea. Could go on and on and as bags says, this doesn't justify what's happening in Gaza. BUT why is all the venom directed at Israel? No, GrannyTwice, I don't understand. Why is the Israel/Gaza blockade described in terms of imprisonment when there is a long coastline and another border with Egypt, equally closed to Palestinians?

Everyone seems to have forgotten that.

Doesn't justify unlawful killing by any other group though. Not saying it does.

Or, to put it another way, Muslims kill and maim more Muslims than any other group does.

I think that's quite a reasonable supposition, nfk. But there was (and no doubt will be for a while) internicene war between muslim sects anyway.

If the idea that the actions of the Israeli government will destroy Israel is true it implies the Israeli government is bonkers because it hardly seems in their interest to do that. Perhaps they are (bonkers). Would the destruction of Israel be a good thing?

NFK Probably not, as the various Muslim extremist groups are often at loggerheads with each other. Isn't Hamas Shia and supported by Iran? If so, no Sunni group or Al Qaeda would support them with a bargepole.

There is a US election coming up in the near future and although Obama cannot stand for a third term, the Democrats will still be fielding a candidate. Apart from a strong and vociferous Jewish lobby, there is also a powerful evangelical Christian lobby. Many of the latter genuinely believe that the Rapture (when they will all be transported instantly to heaven) cannot come until the biblical Holy Land is fully restored to Israel. Their concern is not for Israel or Jews but for Zionism as a step on their inevitable path to eternal life.

Could it possibly be that the US is encouraging this war - and others in the Middle East - to distract all the various Muslim extremist groups? While they're attacking and killing each other, they're leaving the west alone.
Or am I just a cynical old f**t.

Arab (Christian & Muslim) and Jewish Palestinians h.ad lived in the area working and co-existing pre Zionism. It is this political policy that is the underlying issue that has caused this situation.

That Hamas uses civilians as human shields has been refuted by many of the charity (Unicef etc) workers for many years. It is possible that this is Israeli propaganda. The tunnels have be in existence for years and I do not believe, with all the sophisticated equipment at their disposal, that the Israeli forces are finding them hard to find. They need reasons to keep their onslaught going.
The accusation that Palestinians do not want to recognise the state of Israel may well be true for the political hardliners. Equally the current Israeli government does not want a State of Palestine to exist. Israel does not want peace. It wants to keep fighting as it knows it has the power to destroy Palestine completely. It also knows it has to do it bit by bit to keep Western Governments on side.
Make the Palestinians, the occupied & oppressed people, look like the aggressors through clever mediation and the world will support the occupying and oppressive forces. Too painful and too sad. I cannot contribute to this anymore.

Exactly Merlot - and who killed Rabin? A very very right wing Israeli - or as they are known today, the Israeli government

Yes jingle- and the LIES they told about the soldier - they knew damn well he was dead but pretended he had been abducted to stir up more feeling - and go in even harder. But who will ever believe them again if they say a soldier has been kidnapped? Kerry must be furious - they made him look like a complete idiot. I actually think that Netanyahu is mad - seriously- is he trying to self destruct Israel?

Maybe time to spare a thought for Sadat and Rabin.

Lilygran - don't you understand the relationship between the Egyptian government and Hamas?

Why don't the Egyptians open their border with Gaza?

I can't agree that there is no good or bad side. Israeli crimes are now completely unforgivable, and they should be brought to justice at The Hague.

Israel are the illegal occupiers and the ones holding the Palestinians in prison-like conditions- there is no escaping from those realities.

An argument that Israelis are not the primary aggressors and that we are all living in Israel but some of us haven't realised it yet, but which is not condoning war crimes by either side.

Last week was like the Apocalypse. It was night and there were rockets coming in from the sea, fire from tanks and F-16s dropping bombs everywhere. (David Nott, British volunteer surgeon in Gaza)

The US is pushing for sanctions against Russia for supporting the rebels who downed the airliner over Ukraine - and what are they doing about Israel ... why re-supplying them with ammunition of course.

US re-stocks Israel

Bags, I've had 24 hours off GN as I've been away. Thanks for your links, and comments on this thread.

Here's an thought-provoking talk from a former Israeli soldier who now works for peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8

But the bottom line is that the Palestinians (in power) are just as much in the wrong as the Israelis. There is never a good side and a bad side in stories like this. It's a horrific mess of historical grievances and religiously encouraged prejudices.

I also wonder if creating a state of Israel was a mistake. It does rather look like it, but I suppose it seemed the right thing to do after the Holocaust and god knows how many previous years of anti-Semitism in Europe and elsewhere.

In answer to your question, eloethan, yes, though my understanding, which could of course be faulty, is that the Arab Palestinians (those in power) refused to live in peace with Jews after the 1967 war though that option was open to them and what the Israelis (those in power) agreed to. As I understand it, the Arab Palestinians in power refused to make peace so that ever since then they have been, essentially, still at war. They do not accept a state of Israel.

Israel has spent much of its defence funds on protecting its civilians from rocket attacks from neighbouring countries (the Iron Dome which intercepts most rockets, though not all) Gaza appears (that word is important) to have spent its defence funds on setting up rocket launches from civilian bases in the hope of using its people as a shield.

So the pointless killing goes on and on. I have a vision of a dead Palestinian child and a young Holacaust victim supporting each other and looking down from wherever they are, with tears streaming down their poor dead faces, on the continuing horrors taking place in this so-called Holy land. Will it never end? No amount of smug complacency from Israel or religious ranting from Hammas will take away the stain of the atrocities being carried by both sides in that poor, shattered land.

A very comprehensive article.
The writer repeats that the creation of the state of Israel was a mistake - there are some Jews who hold that Jews shouldn't have their own government in the Holy Land until they are all keeping the religious laws. Some think Jews shouldn't live there at all.
He's right to say the current govt. is destroying Judaism.

By "this behaviour" thatbags I assume you include Israel's continuing encroachment on Palestinian land?

The Israelis built bomb shelters and an effective defence system to protect the civilian population. Hamas used foreign aid to build tunnels to infiltrate Israel and Egypt. We should ask why Hamas gets no support from Arab Muslim countries in the area. Rational argument won't outweigh so many pictures of injured children. Appalling.