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How many dead Palestinians ....

(263 Posts)
Riverwalk Sun 27-Jul-14 13:25:16

... will it take before the United Nations/international community actually does something?

Currently over a thousand dead, including many children, and rising.

We had a few measly words from Ban Ki Moon and that's about it.

Blair is partying; Clegg is waffling-on about Russia and the world cup, and Cameron, I've no idea what he's got to say.

If a thousand Israelis had been killed, WW3 would have broken out by now. angry

petallus Sun 27-Jul-14 13:56:41

That's a very good question Riverwalk.

I suspect the answer is that no matter how many more Palestinians die, nothing significant will be done. Basically, we support the Israelis.

annodomini Sun 27-Jul-14 14:29:53

This video has gone viral so the chances are that you have seen it already. It is heart-breaking.

Lilygran Sun 27-Jul-14 14:43:03

Ceasefire for 24 hours

grannyactivist Sun 27-Jul-14 16:12:02

It's sometimes difficult to 'see' things in the abstract so when I was discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict with my son today I asked him to read this first-hand account of Palestinian farmers and their fight to hold on to their land against Israeli incursions. He was quite familiar with the Israeli position, but quite shocked to read the 'other side' of the story.

grannyactivist Sun 27-Jul-14 16:18:07

There are of course many Jewish organisations that are also advocating for peace. Jews for Justice and Jewish Voice for Peace.

granjura Sun 27-Jul-14 16:21:24

Agreed, is is just as wrong to mistake Jews with Zionism, as Muslims with Islamism.

Iam64 Sun 27-Jul-14 16:52:48

Yes, it's stating the obvious, but sometimes that is necessary. The last thing Europe and the rest of the world needs is an increase in anti semitism.

Brendawymms Sun 27-Jul-14 16:55:08

The Jewish lobby in the United States is extremely strong.
The Israeli government consider that they can do no wrong in, as they see it, defending their territory. They do not see the similarity between their behaviour and the behaviour during WWII of the government in Germany.
I have read quite a few comments in the last few days about the rise in anti Semitic comments and behaviour and the upset that this is causing people of the Jewish faith. Rightly or wrongly it appears to be viewed by some that any negative comment about the Israeli offensive in Gaza is seen as being anti Semitic.
To express an opinion in favour of the Palestinians and/or the plight of the people of Gaza is seen by some as anti Semitic.

Free speech where it applies to this issue seems paper thin.

Tegan Sun 27-Jul-14 17:00:09

The Jewish lobby in the USA gets even stronger in the run up to an election as well. The action of the Israelis in recent history must stand on it's own; any WWI anti Semitism shouldn't enter into the equation.

Iam64 Sun 27-Jul-14 17:04:54

The reason I mentioned anti semitism is that at many of the demonstrations taking place in Europe against the Israeli offensive, have footage of banners and chants which are deeply anti semitic. In a German city, there were evidently chants suggesting the gas chambers are brought back. I am as horrified as all right thinking folks about the devastation and death being wreaked on the Palestinians

GrannyTwice Sun 27-Jul-14 17:06:14

Brenda - I absolutely agree. The Israeli government brooks no criticism and constantly plays the anti- Semitic card. And grannya - yes, the Israelis have been so successful in putting their side across that many people even think that the 'occupied territories' means occupied by the Palestinians. The Israeli government is a racist evil regime bankrolled by the USA and supported by Western governments. There is no hope

Iam64 Sun 27-Jul-14 17:10:22

I do hope you're wrong GrannyTwice, and that there is still hope. I don't disagree with your analysis, but surely there must be a way forward.

Nonu Sun 27-Jul-14 17:20:25

Brenda I had to have a wry smile , [not against you].

I Remember posting the same as you, some months back , about the Jewish lobby being strong in the USA

one particular poster who is no longer on this forum accused me of racism and reported me to G/N.

How things have changed !

Aka Sun 27-Jul-14 17:44:17

Hamas are not blameless in this either. While I agree with most that is posted on here we also need to hear most Gazeans speak out against Hamas.

GrannyTwice Sun 27-Jul-14 17:55:09

Aka - of course there is a huge issue with Hamas. But if Israel were treated differently by the West - for example if the UN resolutions were enforced, if the west spoke out about the illegal and expanding settlements, if the west had spoken out about the building of the wall and the destruction it caused to Palestinian homes, communities and livelihoods, then perhaps the people of Gaza might feel they had options to Hamas - a less extreme party might gain power . And what about Israelis - 80% in favour of the current action, taking armchairs and popcorn up onto a hill to watch the bombardment. We in the west have brought all this about - what we did in 1948 was a crime against humanity and we've compounded it ever since. Gaza is basically a prison.

Riverwalk Sun 27-Jul-14 17:59:50

Why would they speak out against Hamas? They are the only people defending Gaza!

I'm not a pacifist - if living under illegal occupation in dreadful siege conditions, I too would fight back with rockets.

Would the British have meekly accepted German occupation if WW2 had turned out differently?

Aka Sun 27-Jul-14 18:02:24

Agreed. Both sides are as bad as each other. Hamas exists for one declared purpose only, the total destruction of the state of Isreal. Of course they are completely delusional as their rockets rarely find a target thanks to tne superior defences of Isreal. Whereas the superior weaponry of Isreal is bringing death and destruction to the people of Gaza.

Neither side cares about the innocents caught literally in the crossfire.

Aka Sun 27-Jul-14 18:02:56

Hamas is NOT defending Gaza.

granjura Sun 27-Jul-14 18:07:57

GrannyTwice- you've said it much better than I could have- thank you.

An amazing Palestinian Diplomat was interviewed on French TV and his reply was so well put- the Palestinians have little choice. Not only was the majority of their land taken away and given to another people- but what little they have left is now occupied, the farmland destroyed, their homes and cities, their children bombed and killed, day in, day out. A prison- and a prison where the civilian poplulation is shot and bombed.

I liked this from his reply:

Just because Slaves revolt against Slavery- does that make Slavery right?

GadaboutGran Sun 27-Jul-14 18:10:10

I too feel very despondent about whether there can ever be a satisfactory solution. I feel it because of the way that Israel was set up in the first place & the way Palestinians were forced off their land, herded into a small strip of land that is Gaza, never allowed to return to their place of birth & denied a decent livelihood, medicines etc. Any country has the right to defend it's borders but Israel's borders encompass land which should have been given back long ago & were provocatively settled by Israelis while again subjugating the Palestinian residents. Defending them by massacre is a dreadful crime against humanity. I have old colleagues who live in Israel & when I visited them I could understand the fear of Israelis in such a small country surrounded by States that did not think they had a right to exist & were being attacked regularly at that time. I have a young friend from Gaza whose family are in grave danger & I have heard from him about the deprivations his family have suffered since his father was forced to leave his home when Israel was set up. His English wife has been helping Palestinians in very practical ways since studying the situation at University. She organized groups of volunteers to help Palestinians in the West Bank to harvest their olives, produce & market their Olive Oil & other products which are now sold by her not-for-profit company (Zaytoun) in Fair Trade shops & Oxfam here. The volunteers have a hard time getting in & out of the West Bank. In both Israel & Gaza there are extremists who seem to be escalating the situation & it's a complex situation with Hamas & why they have lost supporters in neighbouring countries. What is happening is wrong, wrong, wrong. But short-term cease-fires & peace agreements are never going to solve such a long & complex scenario which has come out of a very bad birth.

GrannyTwice Sun 27-Jul-14 18:11:11

But Aka - it isn't just about now and the present situation - both sides are not as bad as each other. The Israelis have broken international law for decades and the west lets them get away with it and they have vastly superior force which the USA bankrolls. If the money was threatened and the western governments spoke out, then maybe, only maybe, the Israeli government might have to consider negotiating - just stopping any more land grab would be a start.

annodomini Sun 27-Jul-14 18:15:13

If Israel had not continued to make land-grabs of Palestinian land on the West Bank, depriving farmers of their livelihood and if they had not penned Palestinians in Gaza, Hamas might not have had the clout with the voters which they had at the last election. There are other more moderate parties but the Palestinians have been pushed into the arms of Hamas by the bully-boy tactics of Israel. And I am not anti-semitic. Far from it.

GrannyTwice Sun 27-Jul-14 18:29:06

Yes many a vote for Hamas was a vote of screaming despair

GillT57 Sun 27-Jul-14 18:54:46

I agree with Brenda ( and others), despairing about any criticism of Israel's actions being shouted down as anti Semitism. This is not true, certainly not in my case and is disingenuous. To a certain extent, I an sympathise with Israeli Jews who were born there and have had to live with hostile neighbours all their lives, but sadly the most vociferous seem to be almost professional Zionists, people born elsewhere who have chosen to live in Israel. They are partly responsible for the illegal land grabbing due to the housing demands and are the loudest when it comes to accusing those who do not agree with their policies of aggression. Greg Dyke said the same thing on Any Questions on Radio 4 yesterday. To be honest, like the LibDem MP said, if I lived in Palestine, I would fire rockets. It has made us all take notice.